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2d Community Zoom on Policing - Shared screen with speaker view
AlexM
18:39
Does "corrections" basically mean "in prisons"?
Christine Babson
18:59
Mute yourselves :-)
annelandry
19:31
Corrections= Prisons, jails, and houses of corrections-Anne Landry, Chief Counsel to Senator Brownsberger
AlexM
20:00
Thank you!
Jane's iPad
20:43
why no research or best practice member on the board?
annelandry
21:08
(More specifically, state prisons and county jails and houses of correction)
Jane's iPad
22:48
does the budget include enough for lawyers to fight the unions who will oppose any officer decertification recommendation? it need to be a very large line item in the budget or this whole thing will fail.
jacklyn (she/her)
25:33
The fairness you speak of, Senator, must also address those who are directly, repeated impacted and traumatized by the police, too. BIPOC namely.
Courtney Foster
26:13
^ Yes. I am wondering, does this bill redistribute funds to the community in any way, or just gives more money to police?
Deborah Goldfarb
26:39
I’m a social worker from NASW MA- and can say if given the opportunity to appoint someone- NASW will choose an individual who is not necessarily a researcher but be someone who has a deep understanding of policing in MA and relevant research, evidenced best practice and works closely with social work academics, etc. Happy to talk more about this Jane, and hear your thoughts
jacklyn (she/her)
26:57
^Same. @Courtney.
Jane's iPad
27:13
does the law require that ma police agencies contribute to and consult the existing national decertification index database?
Connie Chow (she/hers)
27:16
++ @Courtney
Andrew Bettinelli
27:40
@jane, yes.
fredgrosso
28:28
Is there a problem establishing this POSTCommission as a result of some prior agreements between the Black and Latino Legislative Coalition, the Governor and police unions?
Jane's iPad
29:03
re transparency, is there going to be a public dashboard showing all use of force incidents and officer complaints?
Alice Kidder
30:07
Is the Black Caucus supporting this bill?
Andrew Bettinelli
31:43
@jane see Sec. 30, New Ch. 6E, Sec. (4)(j): https://willbrownsberger.com/conference-committee-h-4886-s-2820/#6ESection4
AlexM
35:15
I like that youth expungement with all charges from one day being considered a single incident
jacklyn (she/her)
36:12
Banning racial profiling, what does that look like? Racial sensitivity, anti-racist-type trainings have been implemented, but without any shift in police's continued racial biases.
jacklyn (she/her)
39:00
Remove the police presence. That would be great. They can still have a connection with other safety on campus, but statistics show that when Black and Brown students have just ONE negative interaction with police, they are 45% likely to drop-out!
AlexM
40:01
Jackie is that statewide or national?
Connie Chow (she/hers)
40:35
Can we move on to the next question?
jacklyn (she/her)
41:29
Columbine and the likes are highly unlikely incidence and to use them as reasons why police presence should be there is like saying TSA stops "terrorism" and bombs from entering planes. The mere presence or tactics are not working and we have to shift.
fredgrosso
41:32
Does everyone on this Zoom event get to ask more than one question?
jacklyn (she/her)
41:54
@Alex, state. Last time I looked. I'd be curious to see what it is nation-wide.
Donald's iPhone
44:26
“Highly Unlikely” isn’t a comfortable level for parents or school administrators in urban areas.
jacklyn (she/her)
46:13
Fear-based living and fear mongering is how we've been living. We have to share the statistics with families and school admin. Knowledge is power. We cannot live within the context of fear. Nothing about that is productive. I understand your point, Donald, but facts are facts.
Andrew Bettinelli
46:27
To follow up on Thomas's question, proceedings of the commission are conducted under the state administrative procedure: https://willbrownsberger.com/conference-committee-h-4886-s-2820/#6ESection10
annelandry
46:55
The new Section 10 of Chapter 6E goes through the process (and the hearing) for decertification.
annelandry
47:07
Thanks to Andrew for the link.
Rita Colafella
47:22
Excellent question AlexM!
Jane's iPad
47:49
yes to what alex is saying! there is a high roi from a financial and human benefit perspective for alternative response.
Thalia
48:00
*it isn’t true that the police are the only people on duty 24/7. there are mental health professionals on duty 24/7. we haven’t yet connected that with 911.*
Donald's iPhone
48:05
I believe those that live with the possibility on a day to day basis are best to make that decision.
fredgrosso
49:01
The police should start recording this information about the race of people assaulted by the police.
Thalia
49:31
@chrissy, the statistics bely the “doing really really well” statements. the boston police is only known as the *most* secretive of the nation. we have no idea of police violence statistics here.
Rita Colafella
50:08
The bill applies to the state not just Boston.
Thalia
50:21
are we only allowing police officers to comment on this bill?
AlexM
50:23
@Thalia, what are those agencies? Are they able to respond to remote areas?
Thalia
50:48
@alexm what agencies are you asking about?
dishapatel
50:50
Clearly, the public feels differently. As demonstrated by the support this bill has received in the Commonwealth.
Arielle Miles, Andrew Cohen
50:50
Even if Boston is a model for limiting use of force, there still is too much force used by Boston police
Deborah Goldfarb
51:34
The ESP system in MA (emergency service provider) more commonly known as crisis teams exist 24/7 across MA- including rural areas- in terms of their ability to respond to specific events it’s a lot more complicated, but they do exist across the state “in theory”
Cindy Rowe
53:02
Isn't this bill just putting into law the best practices that you are describing, and the standards to which every police officer should be held?
Connie Chow (she/hers)
53:22
Thanks for all you do. In that case then this bill should be very much appreciated by the police and you have nothing to worry about
AlexM
53:57
Officers, if things are so good then what's the issue with having official accountability avenues?
jacklyn (she/her)
54:24
@ConnieChow, excellent point.
Courtney Foster
54:26
Thank you for sharing, officers - I would like to politely request that we allow a few other folks who are raising their hands have a chance to pose some questions.
Arielle Miles, Andrew Cohen
55:02
The fact that BPD doesn’t kill city residents most of the time isn’t good enough. There is plenty wrong with our policing system in Boston and across the Commonwealth beyond use of deadly force. This bill addresses some of these problems, but does not go far enough. I would like to see police be demilitarized.
Jess
56:26
@ariella I agree
Rita Colafella
56:32
Bristol County Sheriff Thomas Hodgson is in MA is he not?
Connie Chow (she/hers)
56:46
+1 @Arielle. “Not killing people” is much too low a bar
dishapatel
56:58
So we should just ignore Springfield?
jacklyn (she/her)
57:22
++ @Arielle!
Rita Colafella
57:50
Or Bristol County
Jess
58:08
I would like to hear from other people. this has been a rant not a question
Mark D Swartz
58:57
It is not fair that they are dominating the discussion.
Jess
59:00
from people who are supposed to protect and serve that’s quite a temperament
AlexM
59:08
+1 Jess
jacklyn (she/her)
59:31
++ @Jess.
Thalia
59:34
the fact that the boston police are attempting to a) dominate the conversation, b) spout misinformation and propaganda, and c) refuse to allow a measure to address “bad apples” suggests that BPD clearly has issues to address.
Arielle Miles, Andrew Cohen
01:00:42
Bullying is systematic across police agencies in Boston and beyond. Unfortunately, the two officers who joined this conversation were demonstrating bullying behavior, which is unacceptable
Rita Colafella
01:02:06
amen
jacklyn (she/her)
01:02:33
Thanks for speaking truth, Arielle and Thalia.
Andrew Bettinelli
01:02:51
Biometric surveillance prohibition: https://willbrownsberger.com/conference-committee-h-4886-s-2820/#section26
Mark D Swartz
01:02:52
They were not representing their department in a positive way.
Jane's iPad
01:04:13
agree with the comments about militarization. the root of this problem is in the academy. i shared in the chat of a previous zoom some research out of harvard on demilitarization of police training. this is critical to making policing a community focused profession. please let me know if you need the link again and i will send it to you.
Thomas
01:04:43
Columbine and Charlestown Connecticut.
Thalia
01:04:48
To “shift” (in addition to avoiding the term “defund”) we can talk about allocating the responsibilities to professionals with the proper training (e.g., mental health professionals for mental health situations, housing support for homelessness issues, etc.)
Jane's iPad
01:04:54
without addressing recruitment and training we are not going to change police culture.
Chrissy Hutchinson-Cordasco
01:04:59
Until you are in their shoes it won’t make sense
Cindy Rowe
01:05:01
What are we hearing about the Governor's thinking on signing this in its entirety?
Thalia
01:05:27
@jane’s iPad, you are hitting the nail on the head.
Thalia
01:05:50
@chrissy, do you want to get the “bad apples” out? or keep them in?
AlexM
01:05:58
https://www.mass.gov/forms/email-the-governors-officeLet the Governor know what you think about this bill here
Chrissy Hutchinson-Cordasco
01:06:12
My husband is a fixer, a helper and genuinely caring person - he doesn’t get paid nearly enough to deal with the trauma and disrespect
Thomas
01:06:22
Boston is not tge problem.
Chrissy Hutchinson-Cordasco
01:06:31
nobody hates the bad apples more than good police
Courtney Foster
01:06:52
A lot of MA people feel that areas other than Boston get ignored. So important that we discuss diverse statewide contexts
Thalia
01:07:50
@courtney, exactly! the rest of the state *often* feels neglected.
Donald's iPhone
01:08:56
Those officers were obviously deeply concerned about the wide spread of the bill. I seen passion but when it comes from a certain group it’s labeled bullying.
Thalia
01:09:23
@thomas, boston is not the only place in the state.
Thalia
01:10:31
@chrissy, being called a racist is not as bad as receiving racism.
Thalia
01:11:13
@chrissy, policing is the 14th most dangerous job in the country, behind fishing, logging, agriculture, and construction. your husband’s life is at *less* risk that the people that put food on your table.
jacklyn (she/her)
01:11:24
Passion still allows room for others to have a voice and share space.
Thalia
01:12:21
“if they haven’t done anything wrong, they have nothing to fear.” i mean, if that is good enough for civilians, why isn’t it good enough for professionals?
Connie Chow (she/hers)
01:12:28
+1 Thalia
Thomas
01:13:15
citizens get proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
jacklyn (she/her)
01:13:47
@dishapatel ++
Deborah Goldfarb
01:13:49
There’s other bills being proposed that address the need to completely divert police calls to mental health professionanls
Thomas
01:14:03
police officers will receive a lower standard
Thalia
01:14:16
@thomas, police aren’t even held accountable at that level. case after case of proof is ignored, buried, or otherwise not used in court (if a case can even get to court.)
Thomas
01:14:32
not true
Rita Colafella
01:15:12
Every teacher has to pass a CORI test but not every teacher is a child abuser. The bill applies statewide and to all police officers, regardless of being bad or good. It part of the job. Maybe the Boston city council can address BPD.
Thalia
01:15:14
actually, it is legally and historically accurate. over and over again. police are elevated above citizens legally and (not legally but in practice) by the court system.
Thomas
01:15:30
not true
Thalia
01:15:33
@rita — nice analogy.
Thomas
01:16:38
you only see and hear what you want.
Donald's iPhone
01:17:17
I think respectfully you’re not including the numerous dangerous including mental health that officers face.
Thomas
01:18:29
the o
Thomas
01:18:54
The Obama administration praised the Boston Police.
Chrissy Hutchinson-Cordasco
01:18:55
Donald- 100 Percent
Chrissy Hutchinson-Cordasco
01:19:14
they have witnessed more trauma in their career than any individual will face in their entire life
Thomas
01:20:46
This agency will cost millions and millions of tax dollars.
dishapatel
01:20:47
@chrissy I don’t doubt police officers witness trauma. I do think however, the discussion should focus more on how Black & POC folks are being traumatized by police officers, and how that can be fixed. If we don’t start putting ourselves in another’s shoes, the conversation will never move forward. If every member of the public doesn’t trust law enforcement, there’s a problem worth solving.
annelandry
01:20:48
Check the end for public databases from the Commission: https://willbrownsberger.com/peace-officer-standards-and-training-commission/
dishapatel
01:21:19
@Thomas all year I’ve been hearing about how much money reform will cost. The fact is, the majority of the public that supports this bill believes the money is worth spending. That can’t be ignored
Rita Colafella
01:21:24
@Jane excellent point and would be valuable information for this situation in addition to the NRA preventing any gun shooting research at the federal level.
Deborah Goldfarb
01:21:26
I don’t think it’s necessary always helpful to compare apples to orange but as a mental health professional, who is exposed to immense amount of secondary trauma and physical risk, I am held to a ton of oversight and standards- there’s a state wide licensing board, there’s transparency in my license online, etc.
dishapatel
01:21:54
@Deborah agreed, the same goes for lawyers.
Thomas
01:23:03
what about false complaints made against police officers.
Thomas
01:24:02
no perjury or false reporting charge.
annelandry
01:24:03
Here is the public records exemption language: https://willbrownsberger.com/conference-committee-h-4886-s-2820/#section2
Donald's iPhone
01:24:27
@deborah, May I asked the composition of the board you must answer to?
annelandry
01:24:38
"(f) The division of police standards shall actively monitor the database to identify patterns of unprofessional police conduct. Upon identification of a pattern of unprofessional police conduct, the division of police standards may recommend the evidence in its possession for review in a preliminary inquiry.”
Connie Chow (she/hers)
01:24:54
Patterns of complaints by department/precinct would be useful and does not disclose individual officers
Sarah Pardo
01:25:13
@Jane - would you be able to say again the article you mentioned?
Jane's iPad
01:25:41
it cant be the agency that investigates. thats status quo.
Jane's iPad
01:25:47
thanks!
Thomas
01:26:31
will police officers have a legal recourse for false accusations?
annelandry
01:26:34
So it’s not the officer’s appointing law enforcement agency that looks for the pattern- it’s the statewide Division falling within the statewide POST Commission.
Thomas
01:26:56
Boston Police look for patterns.
AlexM
01:27:17
@Thomas Yes, that's what I had asked about. They have formal protest routes on recommendations they think are unfounded
AlexM
01:27:50
initial recommendations and final recommendations. I might have the terminology wrong, but they do have recourse
Andrew Bettinelli
01:27:57
Officer wellness: https://willbrownsberger.com/conference-committee-h-4886-s-2820/#section118
Andrew Bettinelli
01:28:16
https://willbrownsberger.com/conference-committee-h-4886-s-2820/#6ESection7
AlexM
01:29:01
As a tax payer who did not grow up in Boston, I would like to know taxpayers are funding a commission, and not relying the police to, well, self-police
annelandry
01:29:05
Mental wellness and suicide prevention course for officers: https://willbrownsberger.com/conference-committee-h-4886-s-2820/#chapter6Esection7
Thomas
01:29:58
lawyers ans doctors self police and have boards made up of all doctors and lawyers
Donald's iPhone
01:30:15
@thomas,
AlexM
01:30:35
Good questions, Martin!
Donald's iPhone
01:30:51
do you believe it’s fair to have non LE on board?
Thomas
01:31:08
just for the record this is a very good conversation.
Andrew Bettinelli
01:31:31
https://willbrownsberger.com/qualified-immunity/
Thomas
01:31:51
I believe there should be qualified people on the board.
Courtney Foster
01:32:02
On doctors, that could not be farther from the truth. My parents are doctors and spend many hours yearly getting their board accreditation. If even they inflicted accidental harm on someone, they could immediately lose their licenses and much more. They would agree that doctors self-reporting mistakes would not work, and I don’t think it works for any profession
Donald's iPhone
01:32:06
@thomas, I agree. I want to hear all opinions on this matter.
Thomas
01:32:19
not because of political favoritism.
TROY HARTGROVE
01:34:16
Courtney. If that were to happen, who would be the ones to review your parents actions? Are they people that work in the medical field or people outside of it?
Donald's iPhone
01:34:34
I think the points is you’re asking that police not be the body that certifies or decertifies police as Dr’s, Lawyers, electricians, plumbers do not.
Deborah Goldfarb
01:35:10
I know for the social work licensing board there are community members, someone who is not a social worker/in the field. And I’d argue that that should be expanded well beyond that.
Andrew Bettinelli
01:36:08
Mental health./crisis response study: https://willbrownsberger.com/conference-committee-h-4886-s-2820/#section117
Mark D Swartz
01:36:12
One potential distinction is that police officers are public officials who work for the public generally, whereas most lawyers, doctors, plumbers are not public officials.
Donald's iPhone
01:36:46
@deborah, Thank you
Donald's iPhone
01:39:58
@linda, great insight from a person that observes both sides on a daily basis. I get it!
Chrissy Hutchinson-Cordasco
01:40:03
Thankyour
AlexM
01:40:04
To an extent, police are needed in emergencies, and often are called for situations that are not emergencies. So they aren't needed, not because they aren't appreciated, but because if they think they responded to emergencies, but the situation is not one, there response will be wrong basically by definition
AlexM
01:40:41
Which isn't really their fault, we need to have a better system so they are not called for situation where they're training may not apply
AlexM
01:40:52
*their
Thalia
01:41:06
@alexm, that happens. so much. people trained to find the bad guy are called to car accidents, etc.
TROY HARTGROVE
01:41:10
Fantastic points Linda
Rita Colafella
01:41:29
Not every viewpoint holds the same weight and/or credibility. And “both sides” is way to equate situations in order to obfuscate inequality.
Arielle Miles, Andrew Cohen
01:41:55
^^^^^ Thank you Rita
Deborah Goldfarb
01:43:05
There are many social workers that feel more extreme reform and abolition is necessary and is truly what aligns with the ethics of our profession. And that we cannot accomplish that by joining with police.
Connie Chow (she/hers)
01:43:16
Your question, Linda, is what does safety look like for everyone and who’s responsible. Not what /how should law enforcement be - which is only one part of the system. And if we have all the mental, social, material resources we need, we would not be put into many “dangerous” situations
Rita Colafella
01:43:30
What about a respect for education, experience, facts and statistics? This is what is sorely missing in all political conversations.
Sarah Pardo
01:43:44
Could a similar meeting of this kind be held in partnership with groups like Families for Justice as Healing, Black and Pink, and Violence in Boston, so that more voices could be heard in this conversation?
Connie Chow (she/hers)
01:44:05
++ Sarah
Courtney Foster
01:44:27
Yeah Sarah!
AlexM
01:44:27
@Rita, I don't understand your objection. We have lots of facts and experience and education here, and we're going to be developing lots of statistics
Connie Chow (she/hers)
01:44:35
But they also have been advocating for more than what this bill currently permits for MANY YEARS
Chrissy Hutchinson-Cordasco
01:44:51
Just consider all involved- please consider those that protect and serve and have the best interest in serving and protecti ng
Connie Chow (she/hers)
01:44:53
We haven’t been there for them. Not that they are not included here
Rita Colafella
01:45:11
@AlexM some of items voiced here have been opinions.
AlexM
01:45:29
@Connie They could have come to this meeting
Connie Chow (she/hers)
01:46:33
They have been working tirelessly on this. DO we know this will be a space that will not retraumatize them?
Rita Colafella
01:46:43
For example, someone said cops see the most trauma in their lives. I do not know that is a fact and my guess based on the stories of others is that is not 100% true.
Connie Chow (she/hers)
01:46:43
Are we providing services they may need to attend this meeting?
Connie Chow (she/hers)
01:46:50
Childcare?
AlexM
01:47:11
@Rita That's correct, of course. It's been interesting to hear so many different opnions, if not always enlightening
Andrew Bettinelli
01:47:23
https://willbrownsberger.com/reform-shift-build/
Andrew Bettinelli
01:47:30
https://willbrownsberger.com/contact/
Rita Colafella
01:47:33
I am a numbers person.
Cindy Rowe
01:47:51
Thank you for holding this session. So important to explain this type of complex legislation to the public and constituents. Thank you for taking the itme
Linda
01:47:56
Reform is absolutely needed and necessary. I agree.
Connie Chow (she/hers)
01:48:19
Thank you
Arielle Miles, Andrew Cohen
01:48:21
Thank you Senator
Linda
01:48:25
Ty senator
Will (he, him) & Sue (she, her) Twombly
01:48:27
Thank you Will!
Mark D Swartz
01:48:29
Thank you
AlexM
01:48:33
Thank you Senator, much appreciated!
Thomas
01:48:41
everyone be safe