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Bay Area Reach Codes Community Feedback Event - Shared screen with speaker view
Bruce Karney
29:30
Hope: the most aggressive reach code in Santa Clara County. Concerns: too little, too late.
Guy Hall
29:31
home charging for all residents.
Robert Whitehair
29:33
The strongest possible reach code - bold and maybe uncomforable
Kathleen Goforth
29:55
Hoping for aggressive and effective transition to full electrification of buildings.
Nancy Tierney
30:07
Hoping that my city adopts an aggressive reach code, not being deterred by the challenges in implementation
Ginny Madsen
30:08
My hope is that reach codes do further burden renters and people who don't have money.
Diane Bailey
30:08
Hope to prevent new fossil fuel devices from being installed in existing homes & buildings.
Bruce Naegel
30:17
Help get them funded
Michelle Hudson
30:19
Hope: Boldest possible reach codes, including electrification of existing buildings.
Margo Meiman
30:35
Concern: educated and engaged contractors who are also excited to embrace new technologies
Kathleen Goforth
30:38
Equity in electrification efforts
Vida Hayashigatani
30:39
Concerned that lack of knowledge by citizens of my city will pose as obstacle to advance codes
Elaine Salinger
30:40
My hope is the most aggressive reach codes. My concern is that people are afraid of black outs. They need to be reassured that there is a work around during black outs.
Ginny Madsen
30:41
NOT
Sarah Bailey
30:42
Economic assistance for residents that want to electrify their homes.
Gary Trott
30:44
I hope REACH code would include all aspects of green energy, to include hot water, EV vehicle to grid for robustness, gas applicance have a sunset code etc.
Doug Kunz (he/him)
31:05
Hope that the code encourages progress on retrofitting existing buildings. Our city is largely built out already so that will be the majority of the work needed to decarbonize
Kathleen Goforth
31:09
Removal of gas infrastructure
Kendyll Stansbury
31:11
Hope is to reduce production of greenhouse gases. Concern is absence of my city's monitoing the effectiveness of Reach Codes adopted, as there were some exceptions adopted.
Jenny Green
31:38
Hope: Programs to help landlords electrify their buildings
Ken Strong
31:53
We need to keep equity concerns and the cost of retrofits to lower income residents
cheryl weiden
32:24
Concern uneducated public will resist cities attempts to advance bold reach codes. Hope is that outreach can educate public to support aggressive reach codes.
Alan Mattlage
32:44
Tackle the big challenge: existing buildings.
Jared Johnson
32:44
I hope for full building electrification but have concerns that residents need more financial incentives to electrify
Bruce Naegel
32:48
Monitor the results
Kathy Battat
32:55
More education for building trades.
Michelle Hudson
32:56
Concern: Opposition will be ready and organized to oppose bold Reach Codes, and the average climate concerned resident won’t be aware of the Reach Code process and therefore will not drown out the opposition.
Ginny Madsen
35:53
What is included in Industry?
John Brook
36:35
saf
Robert Whitehair
36:44
Will these slides be available?
Ginny Madsen
36:48
5.2% seems awfully low
Eryn Kim
37:18
@Robert Whitehair: Yes, the slide deck will be shared.
Guy Hall
39:12
What happens to excess solar?
Robert Whitehair
40:32
Thank you Eryn
Kenneth Frederick
40:33
Do not underestimate the environmental damage that you will do by requiring the generation & distribution of much more electric power. Also, by outlawing the connection of natural gas to buildings means that you are banning the use of renewable biogas that is being heavily funded & promoted by the CA & Federal Government. Also, when electrical power is lost by storms, wildfires, etc., what powers the emergency generators?
Marc Geller
45:52
What role will be played by smart panels and what role can reach codes play in assuring smart panels help lower the level of electric power that will need to be supplied.
Sarah Bailey
45:59
How large is that space heater? Is that room size? How efficient is it?
Eryn Kim
46:54
@Guy Hall: Excess solar is currently curtailed due to lack of storage capacity, Our hope is that those challenges are mitigated/resolved through electrification, continued development of load shedding/shifting (demand response/management), and continued expansion of battery storage on the grid scale (which is continuing it happen as we speak).
Blake Herrschaft
47:10
Marc, smart panels are still relatively high cost, but we do think that - especially for existing buildings - they offer tremendous opportunity.
Guy Hall
47:14
Eryn: thanks
Blake Herrschaft
48:02
Sarah, heat pump space heaters are exactly the same size as central air conditioners or furnaces. They are approximately 4 times as efficient as gas furnaces (COP around 3.5-4.0)
Marc Geller
48:33
Blake, are they higher cost that the cost of upgrade service? Can they lower the amount of power needed in new buildings, as well?
Ginny Madsen
48:54
PG&E's distribution grid has been shown to be not dependable. We may need to move to smaller grids - like ecoblock in the future.
Rod Sinks
49:00
In my humble opinion, to the extent we need to consume natural gas (when renewables are not feasibly available), we should be doing that at grid scale to generate electricity, not consuming it in individual buildings. Once gas appliances or fuel cells are installed, they get used for many years. We need to stop consuming fossil fuels whenever renewables can cover demand.
Robert Whitehair
49:13
The problem with “transition” is that it seems to have no foreseeable end. At some point, the world will have no choice but to cut off all fossil fuel.
Blake Herrschaft
49:18
Yes, I believe they are the right solution in some cases. I plan to electrify my house on a 100A panel without one - to save money. However, I agree with you. I am very excited about smart panels
Phillip Kobernick
49:58
Smart panels are particularly valuable for resiliency if you have a battery
Ginny Madsen
50:31
clotheslines!!!!
Marc Geller
50:34
Blake, sounds like you and i are in similar situation.. electrification plans led me to ask PGE about upping service. Sounds close to impossible, despite state goals for electrification. Smart panel seems the way to compensate for upgrade difficulty and expense.
Blake Herrschaft
50:35
Rod makes a good point. It is more efficient to burn gas at a power plant, then use electricity to run a heat pump; than to burn gas in our homes. Gas appliances are the least efficient technology available.
Ginny Madsen
52:26
Are heat pumps economically feasible for multi-family applications? Will rental developers claim they are too expensive?
Marc Geller
53:10
Phillip, that makes sense, and I do already have solar and batteries. So personally, a smart panel likely makes more sense than trying to upgrade service.
Robert Whitehair
53:32
Blake, the problem with your argument is that there is no encouragement for utilities to get rid of old equipment, or to seek other solutions. As long as the banks continue to fund projects, utilities will always say they prefer gas power plants. Money is cheap, investors snap up the stock, nothing changes.
Blake Herrschaft
53:41
Ginny, good question. Heat pump space heating is far-and-away the most common way to heat new multifamily homes. Energy costs are about the same as using gas.
Gary Trott
54:11
I am wondering if REACH codes incorporate passive solar heating, lighting or cooling design structures
Blake Herrschaft
54:49
We have been in many discussions with rental developers. Water heating can be a challenge, but for a recent 580 unit multi-family the developer found the construction cost of all-electric buildings to be roughly equivalent to mixed-fuel.
Mayra Vega
55:14
https://www.redwoodenergy.tech/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Multifamily-ZNC-Guide-7-10-19-sa-clean.pdf
Kenneth Frederick
55:20
Have you seen the new PG&E rate hike? The PUC is approving annual hike each year for the foreseen future? CA already hs one of the highest KWH costs in the USA. We pay >$0.32/KWH & WA residents pay ~$0.09/KWH. You may be causing an undue financial hardship on all but the richest residents by the cost of new, higher cost equipment. Due to the cost of the equipment and much higher cost of electricity, on the rich can afford the resultant total costs, which then causes the greatest economic harm to minorities and those on a fixed income. California is already punishing the poor with such programs
Bruce Karney
55:21
Mayra & Farhad, most of us on this call are veterans of the Reach 1.0 effort. My big concern is that your timeline will make it hard for us to get Councils to adopt Reach 2.0 in just the 2 months of Sept. & Oct.
Blake Herrschaft
56:35
Good point. We will take that back. Councils could certainly start earlier. The cost effectiveness results are not required in advance. (due to our recommendation of the adoption pathway.)
Sarah Bailey
57:00
If that’s the case, shouldn’t all apartment and condo buildings have parking spaces that are all ev charging?
Blake Herrschaft
57:10
We are hopeful some cities will start in the early summer. Belmont is considering a 2022 code as we speak.
Eryn Kim
57:14
@Kenneth F/: Thanks for raising your concern. Yes, the energy rates have been increasing in CA. With that said, gas rates have been rising faster than electricity in CA, and electricity rate increases were in large part due to increases in prices of natural gas in the wholesale market due to global supply issues.
Robert Whitehair
57:32
Blake I have been speaking to multifamily developers too. They have a built in inertia towards gas. One developer told me that I would pry gas out of his cold dead hands. This is especially true of developers who build to sell. Their clients have the false belief that prospective tenants will not want gas. In the outreach you all do, better public education is a must. My wife and I love our induction stove and will never go back. I found a way to brown tortillas on an induction stove.
Ginny Madsen
59:39
Unless you change work and commute patterns, charging may very well all need to be charged at the same time.
Robert Whitehair
01:00:03
My home living will be all electric in two week
Bruce Karney
01:00:07
Water heating. Yes!
Kristel Wickham
01:00:08
e-bikes!
Kathleen Goforth
01:00:16
I am already living and driving all-electric and I love it!
Robert Whitehair
01:00:24
Most important to me is technology for 24/7 power
Marc Geller
01:00:48
I fear your notion of need for public L2 is excessive. With universal access at home and work, public L2 may become a rather expensive stranded asset. Especially if it is monetized at double/triple the cost of home charging.
Gary Trott
01:01:06
I would really like an EV to power my house during dark times. Grid out or after sun set
Kendyll Stansbury
01:01:17
My house is all-electric ($ 40,000 later - had to upgrade my electric panel). Car and solar next, but need to build up savings unless I win the lottery.
Blake Herrschaft
01:01:57
Nice work Kendyll!
Ginny Madsen
01:02:30
As a low income tenant, switching from a hybrid to electric means I will be spending a lot of time parked at parking lot charging station. It is highly unlikely that existing multifamily landlords will upgrade anything.
Eryn Kim
01:02:31
@Gary Trott: Gary, Reach codes do not incorporate passive design or cooling structures. However, Reach codes, in many ways, set up the stage for architects and engineers to pursue and adopt passive design strategies for buildings and communities.
Elaine Salinger
01:03:00
We have radiant heat in our home and as far as I know, there is no heat pump for this type of heating. Comments?
Blake Herrschaft
01:03:26
Elaine, Radiant underfloor with hot water or radiant electric?
Elaine Salinger
01:03:42
water
Jenny Green
01:03:54
I’ve been talking to friends who would like to go all-electric but can’t because they live in multi-family buildings and they don’t have an electric outlet to charge and EV, and apparently converting a condo unit to all-electric appliances is more complicated than for a single-family home. There need to be resources provided for people in this situation.
Marc Geller
01:04:28
Should not every effort be made to route the parking space’s electricity to the unit’s meter in order to provide power at the same rate as a single family home, and to take EV charging off the table of the building management?
Blake Herrschaft
01:04:49
Elaine, this “Combi” system would work for you.https://www.smallplanetsupply.com/sanc02
Ginny Madsen
01:06:40
White papers, ads, billboards … anything you can do to get the word out to many people will be time and money well spent.
Diane Bailey
01:06:51
To your questions, I think your highest fossil fuel use is the most important to electrify first - for most people, it’s vehicles. But if you have asthma or respiratory issues (or family members with them), get rid of your gas stove first! And yes, hope to be all electric home & mobility by the end of this year. I don’t miss gas stations!
John Brook
01:08:02
What is the projected increase in rents that result from converting a small (5-20 rental units) apartment building to all-electric? This is an issue for the mom 'n pop housing providers that are the source of 80% of market rate affordable housing.
Robert Whitehair
01:09:26
For public outreach, staff to answer basic questions about electric service panels, electric wiring and similar mundane but important issues. Many many people are willing to go all electric, but need help. I and many other callers come across this problem often. Help is needed!
Guy Hall
01:10:39
Retrofits in converting an existing complex vary widely and can be extraordinarily expensive. $1,400 in new construction compared to PG&E's retrofit cost of $18,000 per unit.
Bruce Karney
01:11:10
Please remember, all of these Reach Code ideas are about NEW BUILDINGS ONLY. Nothing we're talking about are about existing buildings -- the ones that 100% of us live in!
Jenny Green
01:13:29
We need to go beyond reach codes and find a way to retrofit existing buildings
Ginny Madsen
01:13:38
As a tenant with a landlord who doesn't even believe that insulation is a good idea, I stopped using the unit's gas wall heater 3 years ago. Just turned off the pilot. The first winter was painfully cold and expensive because I tried to warm with an electric space heater. The last 2 winters have been not so cold and much less expensive because I discovered an infrared space heater that really is energy efficient. But not every tenant can do - or will do this. My neighbor pays $400 a month to run their gas wall heater, I pay about $40 a month to sit with my infrared space heater like I would sit in front of a fire. About this time of year wearing my winter camping clothes every day becomes less fun.
Robert Whitehair
01:14:03
Yes, Jenny Green!!
Kendyll Stansbury
01:16:01
What is the difference between prescriptive and mandatory?
Jenny Green
01:17:02
Please don’t suggest exceptions for fuel cells
Blake Herrschaft
01:17:49
John, great question! Unfortunately at the moment we have noticed that the rents are increasing significantly without any electrification requirement (or other building upgrades.) Ensuring no detrimental impact to renters is central to our planning process. I volunteer as a renter advocate.
Blake Herrschaft
01:19:06
Kendall - prescriptive is a pathway in the energy code. You can choose either prescriptive (use a list of measures) or performance (perform an energy model where you can trade off one energy saving thing for something that uses more energy. More windows is often traded off for more efficiency elsewhere in the building.) Mandatory measures are required no matter which pathway you pick.
Bruce Karney
01:19:14
What are your thoughts about on-site tanked propane as an alternative to electrification for existing buildings? Propane's global warming potential is about 10% of methane's. Many rural parts of the Bay Area use propane today.
Robert Whitehair
01:19:41
One problem with taking the code changes out of the building code and into the municipal code, is that municipal codes are not modified very often. If a weak reach code is adopted in a municipal code, then it is likely to stay a weak reach code for a long time. The building code must be updated every three years, meaning the reach codes will get stronger and stronger that way.
Ginny Madsen
01:20:35
In most of the older rentals I have lived in during the past 50 years, most had old, non maintained, under sized electrical wiring that would not support plugging in an electric space heater.
Blake Herrschaft
01:20:46
Bruce, correct about the leaked gas GWP. However, propane’s (CH8) GHG emissions when combusting are nearly identical to methane (CH4) combustion. As such, while I agree propane has benefits over methane, it is not a path to carbon neutrality at any scale.
Robert Whitehair
01:21:33
Best slide so far - we need every tool
Eryn Kim
01:23:21
@Bruce Karney: Outside the scope of Reach codes, California Energy Commission and Public Utilities Commission have been actively studying alternative pathways such as compressed gas tanks as a strategy to decommission or prune natural gas infrastructure for hard-to-electrify end uses or as temporary measures to avoid constructing new natural gas infrastructure.
Guy Hall
01:29:00
Doesn't ALMS add significant monthly costs for energy compared to wired directly units meter ?
Bruce Karney
01:29:08
I agree with your perpective that for most folks L1 is plenty. I've been charging my car mostly on L1 for 4.5 years with few needs to go to L2 and almost never to L3.
Ginny Madsen
01:31:15
My concern now is that these reach code changes will cause even fewer developers to consider anything but market rate multi-family projects.
Marc Geller
01:31:22
Some power for all is clearly better than more power for some. I salute your recognition of the value of L1 and low power L2.
Vida Hayashigatani
01:31:26
This may be a dumb question - Presuming aggressive codes are adopted widely, how do we ensure that the capacity of our electrical infrastructure is adequate to meet the future demand for power? During heat waves we are asked to reduce our usage to avoid outages.
Phillip Kobernick
01:32:35
@Guy, Non-networked ALMS is possible (no networking fees or monthly costs). For instance, Clipper Creek has a dual port charger that cuts power in half when two vehicles are charging. It provides the minimum power (3.3 kw) that the new Calgreen code requires pretty simply.
Blake Herrschaft
01:32:48
Great question, Vida! PG&E has stated in writing that they can handle the load. They also have a “service obligation” aka “duty to serve.” As part of their deal wit our cities and state, they are required to provide the capacity we need.
cheryl weiden
01:33:00
Vida: This is not a stupid question. Opposition groups will bring this issue up, and advocates need to be prepared to answer their questions.
Marc Geller
01:34:01
Ultimately it seems the load management we are beginning to talk about for EV charging needs to be brought to buildings as a whole.
Bruce Karney
01:34:13
They will impvoe its resilience. I'd like to see codes that would make my grandchildren (if I had any) say "Thanks for thinking of me, Grampa!"
Guy Hall
01:34:33
Phillip: thanks for your note, but somehow the electrical cost would have to be allocated. Wouldn't this require a middleman?
Vida Hayashigatani
01:35:02
Good to know that Blake and Cheryl. Seeing our power lines outside our home, they look very heavily laden already and just wondering about how that capacity can be achieved.
Marc Geller
01:35:12
Phillip, a 4-plex version of the clipper creek unit would be awesome on a 40 or 50 amp circuit.
Phillip Kobernick
01:35:16
@Guy, correct. The Clipper Creek station I mentioned doesn’t include billing, so there would need to be another solution for payment.
Guy Hall
01:35:33
ah, there's the rub...
Kristel Wickham
01:35:58
So if new construction will be addressed by ordinances are there any things that will still be called reach codes? Are the EV infrastructure items ‘reach codes’ or part of the ordinances? Just want to make sure we are all using the right language.
Phillip Kobernick
01:36:02
@Marc, I agree! And especially for retrofits. Unfortunately, the new Calgreen code mandates a minimum of 3.3 kW when power managing, which very much limits the ability of power management.
Marc Geller
01:36:08
Philip, Guy….of course that points to the benefit of direct to the unit’s meter wiring.
Phillip Kobernick
01:36:12
For new construction, of course
Phillip Kobernick
01:37:12
Agreed Marc, I think the barrier of expensive charging to MUD residents is a critical one and we should be exploring ways to reduce these charging fees.
Marc Geller
01:37:13
Phillip, the state agencies have a crazy notion of the amount of power that should be served. And CARB seems to believe we should be serving 11+kW!
Eryn Kim
01:37:17
@Ginny Madsen: In order to reduce (i.e. to level) costs associated with EV charging for affordable housing, cities are currently conducting studies to mitigate these challenges (both policy and regulatory), and we expect the results of those efforts to address costs concerns.
Blake Herrschaft
01:37:28
Kristen, while there is a statewide definition of Reach Codes - I have also noticed that ‘reach codes’ is being used a general term to mean ‘enabling electrification.’ I think that’s okay. Whatever is easiest.
Guy Hall
01:37:33
Phillip, I believe Calgreen 3.3kw is required only when a single EV is being charged. When the second EV comes online, it can drop below 3.3kw
Jenny Green
01:37:51
@Kristel, a reach code is a local building energy code (i.e. a local ordinance) that “reaches” beyond the state minimum requirements for energy use in building design and construction.
Robert Whitehair
01:37:55
I am asking for the strongest code possible so that those cities that want to adopt a strong reach code won’t get into a jam trying to push something no one else thought of. Start off with a weak reach code, you end up with a weak reach code being adopted by the cities.
Laura Teksler
01:38:08
I will echo the last few comments about pooling our knowledge and resources to make this next round easier and successful
Guy Hall
01:38:15
Are TIer 1 and Tier 2 codes "reach codes"?
Phillip Kobernick
01:38:42
@Guy, the requirement is that each station has to be wired to provide a min. of 3.3 kw. simultaneously.
Blake Herrschaft
01:38:48
Requiring Tier 1 CalGreen can be done through the traditional building code adoption process, or can also be done through a reach code process.
Guy Hall
01:39:37
Phillip: I thought differently. Bet a can of Coke?
Phillip Kobernick
01:41:49
I’ll take that.
Guy Hall
01:41:51
Must reach codes be a superset of the mandatory code in all respects? Or can it as a whole be superior?
Phillip Kobernick
01:41:56
Language from Calgreen.
Bruce Naegel
01:41:58
30 B to upgrade the grid (both gas and electric)
Phillip Kobernick
01:41:59
When low power Level2 EV charging receptacles or Level 2 EVSE areinstalled beyond the minimum required,an automatic load management system (ALMS) may be used to reduce the maximum required electrical capacity to each space served by the ALMS. The electrical system and any on-site distribution transformers shall have sufficient capacity to deliver at least 3.3 kW simultaneously to each EVcharging station(EVCS) served by the ALMS. The branch circuit shall have a minimum capacity of 40 amperes and installed EVSE shall have a capacity of not less than 30 amperes. ALMS shall not be used to reduce the minimum required electrical capacity to the required EV capable spaces.
Bruce Naegel
01:42:05
Pool to make it all electric
Guy Hall
01:42:56
Phillip: you have an address?
Marc Geller
01:43:23
Phillip, we need to get the agencies to understand why that mandate of 3.3kW continuous to all vehicles in a load managed scenario is unnecessary.
Phillip Kobernick
01:43:27
Next time we’re back in the office 🙂
Phillip Kobernick
01:43:34
100% agree
Bruce Naegel
01:44:14
2
Ginny Madsen
01:45:43
Already PG&E's delivery charge every month is TWICE what I pay for the actual electricity from EBCE with Brilliant 100. And my CARE stipend doesn't cover that. I am not alone.
Marc Geller
01:48:02
Thank you Farhad.
Ginny Madsen
01:48:36
Thank you for this. Can you send the links on that last slide out in an email?
Vida Hayashigatani
01:48:44
Thank you - very informative presentation and chats!
Robert Whitehair
01:48:50
Thank you so much!!
Lawrence Garber
01:48:50
Thank you Farhad and team!
Breann Boyle
01:48:50
Thank you everyone!
Guy Hall
01:48:50
Thank you for a get session.
Ginny Madsen
01:48:54
It will be shared!!!!