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Ecosystem Foundry WG / Trust over IP Foundation - Shared screen with speaker view
Eric Drury
17:11
Hi, this Eric in Bangkok - part of the Communications WG, so mainly an observer in this group
Scott Whitmire
17:14
I’m Scott Whitmire from Phoenix, AZ. I’m working on an IEEE standard for medical imaging that will create ecosystems, so I am interested in how they need to work.
Drummond Reed
18:05
Thanks Eric and Scott.
John Jordan
18:58
Welcome!
Tom Smedinghoff
19:05
I'm Tom Smedinghoff, a lawyer from Chicago. I've been working on identity legal issues for many years, and currently looking at international legal rules.
Steve Magennis
19:32
In the Governance Stack WG, We're starting to develop ideas around the various ecosystem participants including ecosystem operators. Worth a look and welcoming input: https://wiki.trustoverip.org/display/HOME/Canonical+Use+Cases
Jim StClair
19:56
Hi, it's Jim St.Clair, hello everyone!
Taylor Kendal
20:09
Taylor Kendal (Denver, CO), Learning Economy Fndn. Supporting Internet of Education TF within TOIP.
Taylor Kendal
20:30
Sorry, no mic. juggling two calls :)
Jim StClair
27:28
Good description, @Drummond
Scott Whitmire
28:46
Is the group of credential providers surrounding an individual an ecosystem, with those around a different individual a different ecosystem, or are they both the same ecosystem? In other terms, is an ecosystem an object or a class? I can see where multiple ecosystems might have the same governance framework that defines the pattern, but instantiates with different players.
sankarshan
30:46
I’d agree with the last part of the statement from Scott W.
Drummond Reed
31:20
@Scott Whitmire: what defines the ecosystem is a governance framework that establishes the policies the members of the ecosystem agree to follow. So yes, you could have an ecosystem GF that is designed for others to implement instances of it.
Scott Whitmire
32:00
@Drummond, thanks.
Jim StClair
33:37
I think we need to emdoy this workflow in some toolset, maybe within the wiki
Jim StClair
33:48
*embody
Paul Knowles
35:11
In “Create” and “Implement”, we can deep link anything semantic-related (i.e. credential definitions, schemas, etc.) to the Decentralized Semantics WG.
Drummond Reed
35:20
Yes, we are working on an overall process doc at the ToIP Foundation level that will help frame what happens where and what could be helped by toolsets.
Taylor Kendal
35:42
Makes sense and Drumm, thx for the early guidance on the IoE TF.
Scott Whitmire
36:45
So, we’re creating a mechanism for groups like my standards team to create ecosystem GFs that are then instantiated as participants sign on to a specific instance of the ecosystem defined by that GF. It sounds like we create the structure, components, and relationships between those components (the architecture of a GF) and provide some tools and minimum standards. There is probably more, but it’s really a standard for an ecosystem GF, based on what I hear @Drummond saying.
Scott Perry
37:06
Ecosystem connotates a broad reach of command and control that requires other methods of cohesion and conformance than tight central control driven by a governance authority that has direct control over all actors. It requires cooperation among actors using interoperability, data exchange, interjurisdictional compromise and governance oversight measures.
Drummond Reed
39:08
@Scott, yes, the idea of the Ecosystem Foundry Working Group is to incubate ecosystem projects that will be instantiated and run by governance authorities (GAs). The idea is that the governance framework templates the GA needs will come from the work of the Governance Stack WG and the interoperable technology specs will come from the Technical Stack Working Group.
Steve Magennis
39:12
It *may* require cooperation, there are some types of ecosystems that are very much driven by a dominant playerthink automotive supply chain for example
John Jordan
39:39
Think complex adaptive systems rather than complicated engineered machinery
Scott Whitmire
40:04
@Drummond, thanks, again. This is very helpful.
Drummond Reed
40:16
+1 to “complex adaptive systems”
John Jordan
40:26
So the actors are well defined, and the kinds of interactions they can undertake are well defined but the overall behaviour of the ecosystem is emergent
Scott Whitmire
40:44
@John Jordan, I work in cancer research, I know non-engineers CAS quite well :-)
Jim StClair
41:01
+1 Scott!
John Jordan
41:31
This is in stark contrast to trying to define all the possible interactions and prescribe the outcome
Drummond Reed
41:39
+1
Steven Milstein
43:02
+1 Dan
John Jordan
43:09
Can you drop a link to slides into cht sap?
John Jordan
43:11
Svp?
Will Groah
43:22
Great perspective Dan +!
Paul Knowles
43:33
Sounds good, Dan.
Jim StClair
44:17
+1
Scott Whitmire
45:38
One example: The set of medical providers who certify medical records to a collection controlled by the patient. The GF would define how new providers contribute new data and how the patient shares existing information with the providers in the ecosystem. It might also define a harmonized data model, or not, and whether that data is physically shared or the participants agree to grant access given by the patient.
Drummond Reed
46:14
Ooooo, Scott, I’m drooling ;-)
Drummond Reed
46:36
That’s a very sophisticated but a very powerful example.
Kalyan Kulkarni
46:47
+ on what Scott depicted. Even India is working on similar concept of “National Health Record” protocol
Scott Perry
47:21
+1 Scott W. It starts with a definition how the business case that unifies all participates to a common purpose. What is the highest level definition that all participants can agree with? Start there and drill down in levels.
Drummond Reed
47:23
@Kaylan, yes, indeed, we hope the ToIP stack is going to be a key enabler of patient-centric healthcare worldwide
Kalyan Kulkarni
47:42
Agree with you Drummond
Scott Whitmire
48:02
Access to data has been a problem for patients for decades. Most of the data my employer collects on a patient comes from other providers (I work for the Mayo Clinic and we’re typically a second or third tier provider).
Jim StClair
48:11
Sounds like a good time for me to volunteer for the health TF in the Ecosystem WG
Jim StClair
48:33
I'll submit something in the wiki
Drummond Reed
48:35
+1 Jim1
Drummond Reed
48:46
+1 Jim!
Scott Whitmire
49:01
+1 Jim
Jim StClair
49:27
This is where these efforts relate to/overlap with identity profiles in HL7 and IHE
Drummond Reed
49:33
I’d like to suggest that this Chamber of Commerce example be written up on the EFWG branch of the wiki as an exemplar of an ecosystem project lifecycle.
Kalyan Kulkarni
50:51
Geographies where we do not have any standards laid down at the moment, can certainly help build the ecosystem with such depiction of the workflow and GF
Drummond Reed
51:10
+1
Jim StClair
51:50
+1 @kalyan, especially as these workflows are potentially defined as part of standards
Kalyan Kulkarni
52:13
True
Jim StClair
52:14
thru W3C, ISO, etc
Drummond Reed
52:27
I think this could grow into a white paper from the EFWG that explains the typical lifecycle of a ToIP ecosystem project
Dan Gisolfi
53:52
Across ToIP we are struggling with WHAT we produce; HOW we produce it; WHERE we publish it
Scott Whitmire
53:55
ApplePay and GooglePay are examples of existing ecosystems that we could use as another exemplar. They significantly different structures, so they serve as an example of two or more GFs solving the same problem, and co-existing quite well.
Jim StClair
53:58
"How to get started in a community trust ecosystem"
John Jordan
54:16
This is great stuff folks .. I have to jump off for my BC work .. enjoy and have a great day!
Jim StClair
54:25
@scott, plus numerous other new digital payment consortia
Jim StClair
54:34
Thanks @john!
Scott Whitmire
55:30
How about an example for creating, distributing, and managing ID badges, or hotel room keys, to phones or some other device?
Scott Perry
56:01
I view Apple Pay and Google Pay being Governance Authorities in the Ecosystem of Digital Payments.
Jim StClair
56:40
The Chamber example reates directly to the Casino industry, where I was just read they are considering a cashless payment system
Scott Perry
56:54
Digital Payment Governance Authorities depend on interoperability standards
Drummond Reed
01:00:10
Here is an example of an ecosystem project that already has a lot of momentum from a year+ worth of work in the education space: https://wiki.trustoverip.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=66102
Jim StClair
01:00:11
They have to follow the same process
Mike Vesey
01:00:31
Thanks Jim, there are thousands of examples I’m sure. We need to create some examples for others to visualize and carry to their own examples. Good stuff.
Jim StClair
01:03:42
+1 Mike!
sankarshan
01:05:04
My take away is that this example deck and exercise is a warm up for the WG. And if we keep this easy/similar to the template then we could make good progress
Steven Milstein
01:05:07
+1 Dan
sankarshan
01:05:25
The deeper aspects of where it goes and is curated can continue to happen in parallel
kenadler
01:08:08
I have one or two ecosystems in mind
kenadler
01:08:15
I do
kenadler
01:08:29
(Actually Scott Davis @ ThoughtWorks is already working on this)
Drummond Reed
01:08:46
Good!
kenadler
01:09:00
(User Journey stuff…. )
Steven Milstein
01:09:08
I could help with that
Jim StClair
01:09:19
Am I wrong to think about BPM tools?
kenadler
01:09:22
Awesome
Jim StClair
01:09:37
+1 Ken
Steven Milstein
01:09:41
I’ve used a product management tool that’s would work with these slides
Drummond Reed
01:10:50
@Steven, excellent, do you want to propose it via the mailing list or wiki?
Steven Milstein
01:11:49
I’ll create a sample of the slides & then share the link so we could visualize it
Kalyan Kulkarni
01:12:06
Just a thought, while we work on Use cases in the workflow we just discussed, we should also attempt to put specific deliverables from each stage “Learn - Convene-Implement-etc.” This may help to flow in to other WGs