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Residency Recruitment Virtual Cafe - Shared screen with speaker view
michael dell
17:34
several CHOP alums in the audience, Tyler … congrats and good luck!
Rachel Thompson
23:20
I will be monitoring the chat during the presentation and attempting to answer some questions in real time and/or bringing them to our presenters for discussion now or at a subsequent Q&A session.
Kris Forneris
29:29
I would feel awful if someone wanted to come visit us and we had no plan to rank them.
Carol Okada (she/her)
30:15
Timing would be an issue as well in Colorado
Sylvia Yeh
30:57
Assuming the start of the season is the same as last year, we would also have difficulty getting a rank list in by the 1st week of Feb.
Aaron Shedlock
31:04
I like this hybrid option. But I do worry about the type of money and benefits that programs will throw out for recruitment - travel, lodging, gifts, etc. I think APPD needs to be very specific to applicants and programs about how money can be spent by programs.
Michelle Barnes
31:06
Would you think that programs would limit the number of people that could 'look' at their program? I am wondering how we should structure that time wihtout really being able to anticipate how many/who might come.
Laura Bricklin
31:08
^that issue makes me wonder about a tiered interview system where there is an initial virtual interview followed by an in person opportunity if invited? Could you create a system to limit programs that applicants can visit (say 5) so there is more equity in ability to visit programs
Emily Strong
31:09
Is this just for residency, or would this be a potential for fellowship programs as well? Or would it be tested with residency first?
Chelsea Schaack
31:09
My concern about having an optional in-person option is that the applicants who are more financially secure, will have an advantage. This is potentially an equity problem still, in my opinion.
Rebecca Swan
31:11
Vanderbilt interviews until the end of January- so issue for us too
Sylvia Yeh
31:33
Also concern for those applying to > 15 places, how do they fit all those visits in?
Kartik Pillutla
32:08
Would you have any recommendations for visiting medical students? It seems like another transportation cost to visit a program in person if they have already rotated with us
Emily Strong
32:47
Totally understand - I was trying to wrap my brain around how that would work too :)
michele nichols
32:52
Recruiting to Birmingham, especially URiM applicants, is extremely difficult without applicants meeting our people and seeing our community.
Daniel Kang
33:11
UC Irvine here. Agree with timing. We interview to mid Jan, so Feb is a quick turnaround. Could match day be pushed later if there is a push for this hybrid?
Kiley Alpert-she/her
33:54
On the other end, how do we ensure the time is meaningful when we are showcasing our programs before interviews start, ie, open houses? In speaking to a number of students this year, they felt zoom fatigue before interviews had even started. Between the offerings from FuturePedsRes and individual offerings from programs, students were overwhelmed with the number of virtual sessions they wanted to attend/felt they should attend (optional can feel mandatory in many situations).
Jennifer Trainor (she/her)
33:58
I think it's a valuable idea. From my advising perspective, I know students would appreciate the opportunity and we could likely submit our list earlier.
Rebecca Swan
34:44
Are we inviting them or is this an opportunity?
Lisa Pierce
34:57
I don't believe bias could be 100% eliminated for those who elected not to visit in person, either because of prohibitive cost or otherwise.
Kristina Wertheimer
34:57
Would we be able to break the time by region so they may come to the area anyway and it wouldn't cost anything additional?
Rachel Thompson
35:02
@ Rebecca Swan - the plan had been for this not to be by invitation
Laura Bricklin
35:09
if you limit the number of places students can travel to, that potentially limits the inequity, i.e. if they can only visit 0-3 that is *less* inequity than 0-20
michael dell
35:11
Not in favor of "inviting"
Jennifer Trainor (she/her)
35:25
I was not envisioning an invite system
Kathryn Kunzmann
35:42
Sounds like that number has increased since COVID?
Rita Patel
35:46
I like the idea of pushing match day by a couple of weeks. I like the hybrid option since we are one of the institutions that is more impressive in person:) Since it would be after our ranking is submitted, it takes away the issue of un-leveling the playing field.
Sabrina Fernandez
35:47
I like the hybrid option but am also curious how many students would actually do a second look as the pressure is off since the programs rank list would also be submitted. Is there a way to survey students and see? Getting a rank list in order by feb 1 would be difficult but not impossible at UCSF
Amina Hetu, Brown Med-Peds
35:57
we are not planning on inviting it would be optional...
Stephen Barone
36:14
Many applicants asked me to visit - felt bad denying. Have to find away to allow them to visit
Nami Jhaveri
36:20
Would there be specific dates for second looks? Or based on applicant availability as drop-in second looks? How can we keep this consistent across programs?
Bridget Voigt
36:45
I like the idea...I invision more of an open house..maybe a 2 or 3 of them so it wouldn't be too time consuming for the current residents/faculty etc
Sam Zhao
37:10
I think this would be very helpful for our applicants! Thank you for considering and pushing for this option.
Aisha Barber
37:30
I really like the idea of a hybrid option (without invitations). Pushing the dates a bit later would make that easier, but we could make adjustments for early February. Boundaries on program expenditures would be helpful but I'm not sure it's possible in reality.
Aisha Barber
37:42
Thanks for so thoughtfully exploring the options!
Rachel Thompson
37:47
@ Bridget Voigt that is a nice idea - very similar to the way colleges do it!
Jill Rinehart
38:24
This is what we had proposed as a group GME activity- open house at the University of Vermont for this past year but then our institution didn't allow any visitors.
Barbara Carson
38:28
Have some Virtual interview days and some IN-Person interview days.Offer the applicants to ether interview virtually or in person.
Suzanne Wright
40:32
Should we consider offering open house type visits in Summer /Fall prior to interviews? travel in Winter can be more difficult ( road conditions, flights)
Jennifer Trainor (she/her)
41:05
Can you give us the link for the data in the chat?
Lanessa Bass
41:27
That's interesting Suzanne. A prelook almost. Also not required but for the benefit of the applicant.
Laura Bricklin
41:29
Suzanne, love that idea! Put the experience BEFORE the interview invites
Kathryn Kunzmann
41:48
Great idea Suzanne!
Rachel Thompson
41:56
@ Jennifer Trainor: For the AAMC data we will provide the links in the slides which we can share.
Kristina Wertheimer
42:02
Also love that!
Lanessa Bass
42:11
And a prelook-- the residents aren't as tired yet from the year :)
Jennifer Trainor (she/her)
42:11
Thank you @Rachel Thompson
Ashley Thurston
42:39
@suzanne, wont that give the impression that attendance in that prelook event would give them advantage in receiving an invitation?
Becky Blankenburg
44:09
ERAS hadn’t changed their application since 1996…the supplemental application is meant to help prioritize which activities they find most important and why (rather than the list of 20 most applicants include)
Aisha Barber
44:53
I agree that timing of the "prelook" would be very nice for resident morale. However, I agree with Ashley and wonder whether applicants would feel that they had to attend to show their interest since it would be done prior to the program submitting their rank list.
Steve Brennan
44:53
Displaying "no information" indicates that the student does not want to be in your region, given the other potential options that are available.
michael dell
45:16
"what is most meaningful activity?" is typically my first interview question … very intuitive upgrade to application
Rachel Thompson
45:18
@Steve Brennan - yes, this is correct. You will know that they have opted a geographic preference but not including your region.
Sylvia Yeh
45:59
If an applicant is applying to more than 1 specialty, they could signal up to 5 programs for each specialty?
Jodi Leonard
46:34
How do you recommend not letting signaling knowledge roll into rank meetings? That could be tricky if same ERAS reviewers are on your selection/rank committee as well.
Rachel Thompson
46:42
@Sylvia Yeh - that is a good question which we can clarify. Not all specialties are doing signaling this year, I will find the link with which specialties are opting in
Michelle Barnes
47:10
Programs then do not share the signaling information with the interviewers?
Steve Brennan
47:11
Yes, signaling and geographic preferencing could easily find their way into ranking meetings
Amanda Osta
47:11
@Sylvia, each specialhttps://students-residents.aamc.org/applying-residencies-eras/supplemental-eras-application-eras-2023-cyclety is different in how many signals they have.
Rachel Thompson
47:51
@Jodi Leonard - this has indeed been a point of important conversation, but programs should be mindful that students have not yet interviewed when they signal and so their interest in a program may have changed dramatically by the time of rank lists so as to potentially not be relevant any more.
Amanda Osta
47:58
@Sylvia - https://students-residents.aamc.org/applying-residencies-eras/supplemental-eras-application-eras-2023-cycle. Each specialty is a bit different in how many signals they will accept
michael dell
48:46
I repeat regularly throughout our rank day that it really doesn't matter whether they want to come to our program. What matters is whether we want them. we will find out whether they want us on rank day
Rachel Thompson
48:53
@Michelle Barnes - the goal is that the signal be an “ask” of a program to do a more holistic review of their application and not be conveyed down the line.
michael dell
49:04
*on Match day
Michelle Barnes
49:08
@rachel thank you!
Jodi Leonard
49:47
Will supplemental app be incorporated into the ERAS application? (not a second/separate app?)
Ashley Thurston
50:06
are there screen shots from participating programs last season about what these 3 elements look like?
Rachel Thompson
50:43
@Jodi Leonard - at present the deadline for the supplemental application is due earlier than ERAS (around 7-10days). Whether it will subsequently be incorporated may be determined after this pilot phase.
michael dell
50:54
my wife and I couples matched … the program that we were most excited about before interviews is the program that we ultimately ranked last
Bridget Voigt
51:01
will we have to choose to participate in each of the 3 parts individually? or is it participate in all 3 or none?
Doug Carlson
51:02
there are a lot of geographic preferences. Why not list the actual preference? I am 100 miles from the next region to the West and 150 miles from the next region to the south. If someone choses those and not exactly my region I would find that a positive.
Suzanne Wright
51:04
would a video upload be more useful than another written application? In the video we could ask them to answer the question" My ideal program would offer...XYZ ( large, vs small, location, special interests).
Michelle Barnes
51:22
Will the students have to go through the signaling process? Will the programs know if the students chose to do it or not? Like will we know if they signaled but just didn't signal our program, or if they chose not to signal?
Sam Zhao
51:40
What are the contents within the supplemental application? Will those be program-specific?
Rachel Thompson
52:15
@Bridget Voigt - we have proposed your question about how the opt in process works and awaiting a clarification
Aaron Shedlock
55:03
I can see signaling being useful but I do worry that students will feel that if they do not signal a program perceived to be particularly competitive/with high reputation, they feel they will be excluded from an interview. they will feel pressure to signal their reach programs
Sam Zhao
55:14
Although this info creeping into the rank list is a risk, I think that risk already exists when applicants email us saying, “You are my top choice” - so this shouldn’t be any more difficult to mitigate.
Sam Zhao
55:28
Yes - exactly what Dr. Dell is saying! 😅
Lanessa Bass
56:48
So, then circling back to the Prelook. Doesn't that almost seem like a "Signal" and maybe we are okay with the influence that it might have on the program to do a more holistic review of the applicants who came to your program for a prelook.
Aaron Shedlock
57:03
completely agree this could be incredibly useful and advisors will need good faculty development
Jennifer Trainor (she/her)
57:07
Our message from recent years, only apply to 15 programs unless you have exceptional circumstances doesn't seem to have been heeded by the vast majority of students.
Jennifer Trainor (she/her)
57:16
How do we make progress on that.
Carol Okada (she/her)
58:01
Our program already has 2 supplemental questions to help us with our holistic review. It is my understanding that the supplemental application is set and cannot be individualized to the program. Is this correct?
Suzanne Wright
58:25
Can we limit the number of applications that students are allowed ? example: each student can apply to max 15 programs. Some are applying to 30!
Becky Blankenburg
59:14
@Michelle, applicants can choose to participate in signaling or not…though most did in the pilots
Rachel Thompson
01:01:06
@Carol Okada - this is correct. The questions in the supplemental application are set but rather broad. There will definitely be programs whose individual supplemental questions may be similar to what can be covered on the supplemental app. As advisors, we are certainly worried about the potential for an exhausting application process if students have supplemental applications to each individual program, so hopefully we can find a balance between the two.
Debra Boyer (she/her)
01:02:15
Do we limit who attends these student virtual cafes to only students? So that they feel comfortable asking the questions without PDs and selection committee folks on the calls?
April Buchanan, COMSEP
01:02:17
@Suzanne. AAMC/ERAS looked at what would happen to students with application limits. There was a significant disadvantage for IMGs.
Becky Blankenburg
01:02:19
@Suzanne, trying to get the number of apps down….currently 43/American MD student, 45/DO, and 80/IMG…have advised no more than 20/MD student and 25/DO students with no red flags.
Sylvia Yeh
01:02:20
What does "'universal invite" mean?
Michelle Barnes
01:02:22
Do the applicants only submit the supplemental application to the programs they signal? or are the processes separate for the applicant?
Rachel Thompson
01:02:26
We are also saving the chat and any questions not addressed we will be doing our best to circle back.
Aaron Shedlock
01:02:44
@Sylvia - some specialties send all their invites out on the same date
Rachel Thompson
01:03:01
The “universal invite” would align us with other residency programs that have either one or a few set dates at which interview offers are released
Sam Zhao
01:03:03
Has there been any move toward standardize the LORs like has been done by our EM colleagues?
Sam Zhao
01:03:08
*standardizing
Rachel Thompson
01:03:52
@Sam - will allow Mike Dell to respond specifically to this - however we feel there are needs in pediatrics that don’t quite fit into the super standardized letter that the EM programs use, but more guidelines for useful content.
Amanda Osta
01:03:53
@Michelle - programs will receive the supplemental application even for those students who don't signal you
Becky Blankenburg (she/her)
01:04:12
Please submit questions/comments for future discussion to: https://forms.gle/cWTE6YKvZZWowKwP6
Tyler Bruinsma (he/him)
01:05:06
Regarding student only-session, our regional webinars have time with program leadership but also a dedicated student and resident only time to ask questions freely.
Suzanne Wright
01:05:13
i like the idea of standardized letters.
Sylvia Yeh
01:05:14
My sense is that a "universal invite" date would disadvantage the smaller programs, or programs that would otherwise not get a lot of signals. We do rolling invites based on how many people accept in prior rounds as its hard to know who is really interested and not sure how the signaling will change that
michael dell
01:05:15
@ Sam Zhao … we have a working group looking at rec's for LORs. Unlikely to be standardized, but optimistic about creating guidelines that will improve quality of letters from department and from general faculty
Kelly Brown
01:05:16
No option for rolling interview invites?
Kelly Brown
01:05:31
@ sylvia - agree!
Ashley Thurston
01:06:06
will we have annual opt in for these 3 elements? we try them all this year but for our small program, supplemental wasnt helpful but signal was, etc... can we choose in the future?
Sam Zhao
01:06:33
@Michael Dell - thank you! I hate dinging an applicant just because of a poorly written LOR which could be more indicative of the letter writer’s skills than the applicant's
Barbara Carson
01:06:48
Are the Fellowship Programs going to be following this process beginning with the July Interview Season?
michael dell
01:06:51
agreed, Sam
Kelly Brown
01:07:37
Small programs also get 2000+ applications
Nami Jhaveri
01:07:53
Smaller programs often have less staff to review the applications so enough time is also important
Monique Naifeh
01:08:31
that makes much more sense
Sam Zhao
01:08:45
I appreciate that distinction!
Monique Naifeh
01:08:59
hope to see some of you in Denver!
Sam Zhao
01:09:30
Yes, looking forward to meeting and seeing many of you this weekend!
Heather Aschoff
01:09:31
No mater how all of these components roll out, it will take our teams more time, as we navigate a revised system. Let's give ourselves that time and grace to figure this out. :)
Suzanne Wright
01:09:45
any feedback/research on satisfaction/surprises from residents who matched after virtual interview only?
Adam Weinstein
01:09:46
I agree with the rolling option. I believe Ob-Gyn has waitlist as an option, and those are rolling thereafter. So if after the first (and second) dates, the applicant can be waitlisted so that those programs can still invite applicants later, rather than reject everyone not invited upfront.
Rebecca Swan
01:09:50
This was a great conversation!
Becky Blankenburg (she/her)
01:10:40
There is a great LEARN Study going on right now!
Jodi Leonard
01:11:06
Thalamus recently shared some interesting data on the universal invite dates... (specifically the peak of OB release).. It ended up not being as equitable as one would think - applicants used multiple devices/people to log in. those with edu emails vs com emails took longer to load the systems. Also time zone issues/fairness. they recommended waves.
Monique Naifeh
01:11:15
thanks everyone-- this is great!
Becky Blankenburg (she/her)
01:11:36
Please submit questions/comments for future discussion to: https://forms.gle/cWTE6YKvZZWowKwP6
megan aylor
01:12:24
thank you!