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Central Wasatch Commission Mountain Transportation System Summit - Shared screen with speaker view
Lindsey Nielsen
32:23
Meeting agenda here: https://cwc.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/CWC_Summit_Agenda_11.20-_v2.pdf
David Stein
34:45
I agree with Dan, we need mass transit. Unfortunately the Wasatch is a totally different scale and geography than the Alps. Much smaller scale.
Ralph Becker
35:10
Good point, David.
David Stein
36:34
Besides, technology advances and there are better options now. If we build the Cottonwoods Express it will become world famous. It will be copied where appropriate world-wide.
David Stein
37:52
We will have visitors from around the world wanting to experience it. The same cannot be said for buses or gondolas.
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
39:58
David, We are here because of the overcrowding that we already have
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
40:05
Personally I'd like to make roadside parking a thing of the past, totally not done. UDOT would really appreciate that.
Mike Peterson
40:13
Good media coverage last night on local media.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
40:55
Just because they want to experience it doesn't mean they will be regulars. The media storm always subsides relatively quickly after something new comes along.
Harris Sondak-CWC(Alta)
41:37
given what blake said, it seems like BCC methods may very well be tied to those for LCC
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
42:42
One of the big questions about top of the canyon is what do we do during Interlodge Restrictions? This could actually be handled by the Cottonwoods Express, see the proposal.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
43:16
Is that time from the Mobility Hub?
Ralph Becker, CWC
43:40
Good points, David. In considering alternatives and their consequences and impacts, these elements were considered.
Randy Doyle
44:45
Is the 60 M Capital investment just for Busses?
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
44:46
It would also enable accessing the ski resorts during Interlodge Restrictions as well as during avy control and when SR-210 is closed by avalanche(s).
Mike Peterson
44:55
How do we incentivize people to get out of their cars and into a bus?
michael allegra
45:20
would these buses stop mid canyon?
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
45:52
Explain what the demand we are trying to meet is… in the short and long term?
Ashley Burr-MIDA
46:10
the incentive is a disincentive
Ashley Burr-MIDA
46:31
if you have to pay to drive up there you'll be less likely to
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
46:39
The Cottonwoods Express AEVs (Autonomous EVs) will be able to have individual parties pick their destinations including all trailheads. This will not have any affect on through traffic AEVs since there will be exits like I-15.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
46:52
NO, What is the demand?
Wayne Niederhauser
46:53
Where is the $60 Million coming from?
Jenny Wilson
47:03
Are electric buses scoped?
William McCarvill
47:10
The math says 6 busses per hour with 40 passengers equals 240 visitors per hour is this s significant reduction in vehicles up canyon
Randy Doyle
47:53
As a minimum some passing lanes would be needed.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
48:28
The Cottonwoods Express initially capacity is 4,000 vehicles per hour with 5 people per vehicle = 20,000 per hour. There is no practical limit to the number of tunnels that can be stacked underground, so this capacity could be doubled or tripled in the future as needed.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
48:52
That info is per The Boring Company's information.
Mike Marker-LCC res
49:41
Carl asks the big question: Capacity of there canyons.
Laura Hanson
50:13
Carl may be asking for someone like the have defined in the EIS, Xth busiest day in the year XXXX.
Laura Hanson
50:17
something
Barbara Cameron-BCCA
50:22
Would expanded passing lanes at Moss Ledge and Reynolds Flat be adequate, Randy?
Ashley Burr-MIDA
50:26
right. I understand what he's saying. Are you going to keep meeting increased demand? Or will you have a ceiling?
Mike Marker-LCC res
50:58
Are there limits to how many people these box canyons can sustain?
Jenny Wilson
51:04
I agree with Karl. We should know the goal.
Jenny Wilson
51:26
Carl, I mean :-)
Ashley Burr-MIDA
51:43
Exactly. I don't think it works to say we just meet demand, assuming it just keeps expanding forever.
Chris Cushing - SE Group
52:51
There is a finite number of guests the ski resorts can host on a peak day. Those numbers need to be accounted for in establishing canyon peak capacity in the winter
William McCarvill
53:09
We need to determine what is tha carrying capacity of the Wasatch for recreation visitation
Mike Peterson
53:43
I also agree with Carl. We need a number, though it may change each year, that we our planning to accept.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
53:47
@Chris Cushing… But resorts have the ability to build things to increase that # so it is conceivably infinite.
Future Generations Shea
54:35
When I was with the Department of Interior, the Park Service was faced with a similar problem of "carrying capacity" for certain Parks - Zion, North Rim of Grand Canyon. The solution which would work with our Canyons is to limit access and that access was not in private cards.
Shawn Marquardt - Doppelmayr
54:35
The goal is simple, provide access to our fantastic recreational venues and eliminate what has become an unsustainable transportation situation
Chris Cushing - SE Group
54:49
They have a finite area so can only grow as much as their permit area allows, so there IS a max. May not be there yet but it is there.
UTA-Carlton Christensen
54:51
We are currently building a new facility that will handle more electric busses but today, we have limited capacity. It's certainly something we are looking how to best manage and service.
Randy Doyle
55:12
We need some type of bus priority between Silverfork and the top.
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
55:19
Right, but the Forest Service’s control over visitation is largely based on parking spaces and facilities. How does that strategy change with increases in bus use or other mass transit. This is why the CWC’s support of visitor use management - to understand our impacts - is important
Laura Briefer (Salt Lake City)
55:21
There is also a limitation to the capacity of water and sewer infrastructure, which provides a ceiling to expansion of use.
Jenny Wilson
55:56
There is an ecological and “visitor experience” maximum. I don’t know exactly what it is but it needs to be pursued so that we know which system meets that community driven limit.
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
56:51
Part of the move to any mass transit option should be required ridership. One flaw of the EIS that worries us is the incentivized travel. It sets the precedent for optimized use of both cars and mass transit, which is the worst possible scenario for the canyons.
Mike Marker-LCC res
57:06
Yesterday we set as one of the desired outcomes , “protect the outdoor experience”. That is different from the the forest service welcoming unlimited users.
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
57:13
But none of this Blake accounts for Latent Demand
Chris Cushing - SE Group
57:16
Bottom line, it seems like establishing a max "carrying capacity" for the canyons is fundamental to this exercise.
Laura Briefer (Salt Lake City)
57:49
That is right Chris. I agree.
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
57:49
Agree with Chris Cushing
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
58:00
That 20,000 can handle 17,000 on a peak day in less than one hour. People don't all hit at once, some don't show up until noon like my brother. He's a late sleeper.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
58:22
If the ski resorts implement ticket limits, the Cottonwoods Express will be able to tie into that and inform riders that no tickets are available and they can switch their destination enroute.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
59:59
If the ski resorts implement ticket limits, the Cottonwoods Express will be able to tie into that and inform riders that no tickets are available and they can switch their destination enroute.
George Vargyas - Wasatch Backcountry Allainace
01:00:14
Resort skiing is already an affluent activity. Having less congestion on ski slopes is a better experience
Mike Marker-LCC res
01:00:28
this is not just a winter capacity issue.
Shawn Marquardt - Doppelmayr
01:00:29
Great point Mike, setting a capacity can set indirectly eliminate equitable access.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:00:52
The Cottonwoods Express has designed in a solar farm with Big Battery (like Australia's Hornsdale Power Reserve) tied into the Cottonwoods Express tunnel network. The charging will be done autonomously using either Tesla's "snake" or inductive undercar, near the solar farm/big battery. This solar farm will generate approximately 113 GWh/yr with 8 GWh/yr used to charge the AEVs. The other 105 GWh will be either sold at wholesale or sold at discounted retail to the ski areas to run their lifts with renewable energy. The power services income plus power sales will pay back the loans for the system and fund future expansion (Mill Creek canyon, Wasatch Back regional transit, SLC, The U).The solar farm and big battery will make it so the transit will be free to ride.
Dan Knopp
01:01:03
I agree with mike 100%
Lorin Simpson-UTA
01:01:07
Electric buses would need charging facilities at or near the canyon. And, as Blake said, additional testing is needed in winter conditions and assessing long term impact of the steep grade on regenerative braking systems. Still, it is a promising technology.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:01:10
Since the system will pay for itself.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:02:07
Express buses as a stop-gap measure are my preference. They are quick to implement and easily removed if and when they are no longer needed.
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
01:03:01
4b. BCC Bike/pedestrian improvements
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
01:03:01
Express bus in BCC I put I agree only if we take a deep look at overuse of our environmental recreational areas
Future Generations Shea
01:03:02
2nd day, 1st question - In favor if there is a capacity or carrying capacity for BCC and it is updated and enforced.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:03:25
During spring/summer/fall the Cottonwoods Express AEVs will all have 5-bicycle racks accommodating their 5 passengers.
Kerry Doane - UTA Planning
01:03:40
Are the bike lanes in both directions?
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:04:08
It also enables situations like mine. My wife is a huge hill-climber. I'm not. She can ride up, I'll take the Cottonwoods Express up, we can ride down together.
Mike Peterson
01:04:09
Will these improvements include restrooms specifically?
UTA-Carlton Christensen
01:04:19
While not directly transportation, restroom facilities have to be considered with expansion
Dave Fields - Snowbird
01:04:20
I'm curious what "pedestrian" means when talking about a state highway? Is that crosswalks?
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
01:04:21
A start is to take the parking of cars off the roadway
Laura Briefer (Salt Lake City)
01:04:31
Good question Mayor Peterson!
michael allegra
01:04:43
would these lanes be completely separate from the road?
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:05:17
Concerning restrooms. Since the time from a trailhead to Alta is < 3 minutes, most people can hold it that long.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:05:31
Alpenboch to Alta in 3.1 minutes.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:05:53
Lisa Falls to Alta in 2.1 minutes.
Dennis Goreham, WMC
01:06:00
It may not be enough to know where trailheads are, we need to know where people are going - creekside, peaks, lakes, etc
Dan Knopp
01:06:08
we have a lot of runners
Chris McCandless CW Management
01:06:46
I agree with Charlton, restrooms and pedestrian safety should be part of the planning process AND who is that get to maintain them?
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:07:00
Proper corridor along the avy paths? Not likely.
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
01:07:03
Who will pay for bathroom maintenance? Will they be all year?
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:07:38
Would have a hand full or scheduled pedestrian days on the roadway help? Rather than looking at adding infrastructure, repurposing or sharing existing infrastructure?
Harris Sondak-CWC(Alta)
01:07:56
Bike racks —> bike theft?
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
01:08:10
Another low cost start is to curve the highway to put the parking for picnic areas on the same side as the picnic site. Reducing speed limit will help cyclists and pedestrians.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:08:21
Right!
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:09:14
Note that the current UDOT snowshed design is totally impractical for the bike path. A 50' wide 12% grade roof emptying directly over the middle of the bike path with a 16' drop (waterfall). After the very first rain storm that path will be totally unusable, forever. With a Jersey barrier and it's 4' width, no way to sweep it.
Future Generations Shea
01:09:43
When the SLC closed City Creek Canyon the first major problem was the mix of pedestrians and bicycles. There were several serious injuries of pedestrians. The solution was to go to alternating days (odd/even.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:09:43
If bike racks = theft. Crosswalks = targets
Barbara Cameron-BCCA
01:09:50
Really like Kirk's suggestion to put parking adjacent to trailhead, specifically at Ledgemere and Willow Heightsf!
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
01:09:52
The more incentivizing through aesthetics, comfort and safety we give to bicyclists and peds, like Blake says, is important.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:10:24
5-11% grade on a gravel and sand covered bike path with concrete columns on one side and a steep rocky drop to Little Cottonwood Creek on the other? Really?!?
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
01:11:25
4c. Variable tolling...
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:11:44
Tolling is a "stick" approach and NOT equitable. The Cottonwoods Express is a "carrot" approach.
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
01:11:53
Pat, pedestrians are always in city creek. Alternating days were bike v cars
David Carroll
01:12:49
Tolling is regressive taxation putting a more significant burden on those less able to pay
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:13:10
It also encourages people to ski elsewhere.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:13:20
Especially regulars.
Mike Peterson
01:13:27
Has the quasi tolling in Millcreek Canyon over the past 30 years been deemed successful?
Lorin Simpson-UTA
01:13:53
Does the cost include added transit to accommodate the increase in transit use due to the disincentive to drive?
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:13:55
It really discourages people from going up "after classes for a few runs".
Barbara Cameron-BCCA
01:14:05
Sounds right, Blake
Chris Cushing - SE Group
01:14:07
Are those costs per canyon or for both?
David Carroll
01:14:34
Mill Creek tolling is a revenue generating measure not a behavior modification measure.
Chris McCandless CW Management
01:14:42
In the UDOT EIS Study comments, tolling was widely supported by a large number of the 6500 comments.
Laura Briefer (Salt Lake City)
01:14:44
I am remembering that SOC, SLC, and others commissioned a visitor use study recently. I think the data from this study would be really helpful in the context of this effort.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:14:55
Is this a fee based toll or an occupancy based toll?
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:15:08
It will have a small affect, but won't affect anybody who can easily afford it.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:15:42
It seems if you offer financial relief based on doing the thing that the toll is trying to do (increase occupancy) there is not economic hardship
Future Generations Shea
01:16:09
The tolling revenue should stay in the Canyon from which it was generated.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:16:19
How do you enforce occupancy? Really tough. I've heard of blow-up dolls being used.
William McCarvill
01:16:20
How will toll be collected without stopping the flow of traffic?
Dennis Goreham, WMC
01:16:29
will bus riders pay toll?
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
01:16:41
@Pat, I agree. That is the crucial element to tolls. We need to know that our toll fee benefits the canyons we visit
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:16:48
Like EZ Pass
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:17:03
Less of a restriction.
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
01:17:07
For residents who work daily out of the canyon, how would fees be adjusted or would they be adjusted?
Dan Knopp
01:17:08
it all comes down o who you want to exclude.
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
01:17:14
Equity concerns can be mitigated by basing tolling on vehicle not occupancy of vehicle.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:17:25
But still tons of cars, so still red snake.
Chris McCandless CW Management
01:17:38
How do you make allowances for those who are financially impaired?
Chris Cushing - SE Group
01:17:44
Or annual pass that is less expensive
Megan Anderson
01:17:52
Would the toll be seasonal or year round?
Randy Doyle
01:18:05
Is there any data other than the 3T study that speaks to potential revenues and costs?
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:18:19
The Cottonwoods Express will be free to ride and on-demand, 24 hours per day. So employees who need to go up early or leave late will be completely supported.
Chris Cushing - SE Group
01:18:36
Clearly a good option, the devil is in the detaqils
Harris Sondak-CWC(Alta)
01:18:36
Residents who go between NY and NJ, or from SF to Berkeley, pay the tolls. In my experience, canyon residents haven’t really considered that they may have to, too.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:18:41
365 days a year.
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
01:18:42
Incent car pooling. Also, design the roadway base for car poolers to collect into fewer vehicles with Pick up Lanes (there is a better name for this and utilized extensively in Washington DC and other metro areas.
Dave Fields - Snowbird
01:19:14
Carpooling requires parking lots somewhere.
Ralph Becker, CWC
01:19:30
Lots of details, as reflected in the comments would have to be worked out in tolling implementation.
Shawn Marquardt - Doppelmayr
01:20:20
Can we toll the user type?Do we know the % split between resort users and dispersed recreation users?(e.g. 80/20, 90/10, 95/5, …)A possible solution would be to toll resort users and not dispersed users, thus incentivizing the majority to use mass transit. Solving the problem for the majority will by nature eliminate the problem for the minority.
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
01:21:11
@Dave - I think you hit at one of my questions over this process. We need to understand whether these mass transit options entail full ridership of mass transit and minimal use of the road (therefore less need for lots) or go off of the EIS which suggests use of both the road and mass transit and we will still need the lots.
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
01:21:30
Shawn how would that be enforced
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:21:37
By destination doesn't handle employees.
UTA-Carlton Christensen
01:21:54
I think you have to use universal tolling. If you've tried UDOT"s express pass, it works well and is nominal over time.
Steve Van Maren, Sandy Resident
01:22:02
Resorts could provide selective toll subsidies.
Tamara Prue (Salt Lake City)
01:22:32
Could tolling potentially cover the costs to use any mass transit option, there by making it low cost or free?
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
01:22:35
4d. Year-round local bus
Kerry Doane - UTA Planning
01:22:58
FYI, the DC carpooling is called Slug Lining, I believe.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:23:19
Considering $1.5M estimated income and the bus option's O&M cost is much larger than that, it would not cover expenses.
Shawn Marquardt - Doppelmayr
01:23:22
@Carolyn, for example: pay to park at the resorts but no toll to park at the trailheads
David Carroll
01:23:41
I support tolling as a way to modify behavior, but it will disproportionately impact those who can’t afford to pay creating a privileged group who will still keep using their cars.
Ralph Becker, CWC
01:23:41
Tolling cost covering cost of transit: initial studies have indicated that there could be a contribution, but that it would not cover anywhere near the full costs of transit.
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
01:23:41
Smaller (vans) especially on lower demand times equals fast, frequent, free. They should be agile and able to stop on demand (to closest stop).
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:23:46
If you charge at resort parking lots, people will park more on the road.
Lorin Simpson-UTA
01:24:09
Does the cost include stop improvements at the trailheads?
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
01:24:13
Access to several trailheads is important if we want to disperse heavy impacts on the environment during the summer
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:24:37
@Ellen, exactly! The 5-passenger Cottonwoods Express AEVs allow for fine granularity.
Dennis Goreham, WMC
01:25:12
will there be stop and pickup on demand to accommodate Creekside users?
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:25:37
The Cottonwoods Express being underground will be totally unaffected by snow. No accidents or traffic issues either.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:26:19
Cottonwoods Express is completely on-demand.
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
01:26:35
On demand would be great.
Ashley Burr-MIDA
01:26:39
on demand microtransit should definitely be considered
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:26:39
It will also have a smartphone app for calling ahead.
Bob Paxton
01:26:50
the resorts up LLC have recently increased peak says 25-30%. adding a toll will greatly disincentive local residents. also, the resorts don't have capacity to accommodate gear.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:26:56
Con - could be resource damage if capacity/visitation is unmanaged… which means consideration of policy change to aid visitor management may be needed (transitioning from parking space limits to visitor limits)
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
01:27:25
Use of technology paramount. Emphasis on this designed for 2050 capabilities (real time tech capabilities) — “beam me up, Scottie”
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:27:29
Given smartphone knowing where you are at all times, you will be able to have a Cottonwoods Express AEV meet you when you get to the trailhead.
UTA-Carlton Christensen
01:27:30
Any on demand would simply be to connect them to the broader system, it isn't a substitute for Lyft or Uber and is limited to a certain geo fenced area.
Laura Hanson
01:29:21
Regarding small vs. big bus. The majority of the cost to any bus service is the driver labor. A smaller bus essentially costs the same, and has the capacity to carry fewer people. If the goal is reducing cost, smaller vehicles don’t accomplish that very well. The benefit of smaller vehicles is that they can navigate tighter roadway conditions (narrow streets), and they may fit into the character of a residential neighborhood better.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:29:41
The Cottonwoods Express will tie in with local hospitals and police departments with customized AEVs for their purposes. In an emergency you could call for an ambulance to meet you at the trailhead.
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
01:30:04
4.e. Reduced on-road parking…
Future Generations Shea
01:30:21
Julianna and Ralph, what is the intended use of these polls?
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:30:22
AEVs have no driver, so much lower labor costs and 24-hour availability without scheduling issues.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:30:58
They also don't call in sick or hungover.
Ralph Becker, CWC
01:31:21
Polls are to help us capture the participants views. Not everyone comments on each topic and this gives the CWC an opportunity to have a sense of the group. Note: only one way to get input.
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
01:31:49
Thanks Pat. Saw your question. Thx Ralph. Yes.
Future Generations Shea
01:32:23
Ralph, Will the polling data be used in Lobbying the Legislature or Congress?
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
01:32:33
Pro, gives road shoulders behind the fog line back cyclists and runners
Del Draper -Alta Community
01:32:41
Roadside parking may be more problematic in the winter because of the need to remove snow, but it doesn't cause that much of a problem in the summer. The safety concern can be partly met by reducing speed limits in popular areas. without good transit to trail heads on road parking is needed.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:32:46
Is being tied to other transit solutions really a con?
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:33:08
Most everyone that uses a trailhead would use the Cottonwoods Express instead. We know parking is often a pain,, so we would avoid that pain while having faster and more fun transit.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:33:24
I just thought we were looking for transit solutions…
Dave Fields - Snowbird
01:33:46
I haven't seen a transit proposal that addresses all of the trailheads I saw in use this summer, especially in BCC.
George Vargyas - Wasatch Backcountry Allainace
01:33:53
Will roadside parking be eliminated away from resorts and trailheads?
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:34:04
I'd like to eliminate roadside parking totally by having it totally unneeded.
Ralph Becker, CWC
01:34:15
The poll questions will be incorporated in the Facilitator's report and provided to the Commission.
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
01:34:23
If roadside parking is eliminated, what will fill the breach?
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:35:29
A Cottonwoods Express station at each place where it happens now. Do we have a comprehensive list of where people park now?
William McCarvill
01:35:51
so what happens when the boulderers bring their crash pads on a bus?
Shawn Marquardt - Doppelmayr
01:36:33
Simple signage at the canyon mouth could annunciate the available parking in real-time. If a driver sees that a lot is full then they won't drive to that lot.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:36:56
@William The Cottonwoods Express AEVs (Tesla Model X and Y, 5-passenger) have good cargo carrying capacity.
Ralph Becker, CWC
01:37:41
We are capturing all of these comments and it will help shape our and any other entity's implementation. It will also be part of our public record.
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
01:38:15
4f. Paid parking at resorts...
Ashley Burr-MIDA
01:38:35
ANY transit mode would need to be able to accommodate all kinds of equipment- bikes, climbing/ski gear, etc
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:38:45
Cottonwoods Express proposal: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1kfsbonyy4dqr04/Cottonwoods%20Express%20proposal%20V3.2.pdf?dl=0
Future Generations Shea
01:38:55
We still need to know how the revenue generated by these suggested modification will be spent, and who controls the use of these funds.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:39:34
Can Kim talk about if this actually changed behaviors?
Holly Lopez
01:39:38
My dad is very concerned about a transit/parking plan’s impact on hunters. Are exceptions for parking being considered for that use?
Del Draper -Alta Community
01:39:39
Paid parking works. It encourages car pooling and encourages transit
Shawn Marquardt - Doppelmayr
01:40:15
Solitude did an amazing job. The difference was night and day between the 18/19 and 19/20 ski seasons.
Dave Fields - Snowbird
01:40:15
Kim has meetings this morning. She has told me the program increased vehicle occupancy.
Randy Doyle
01:40:30
Blake is this in conjunction with tolling?
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:41:02
I agree Del, it changed my behavior too, but I feel like I’m a bit of an anomaly these days :)
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
01:41:12
I saw an increase of parking on the road and I watched these people walking into the resort more than backcountry trails
Lorin Simpson-UTA
01:41:26
Solitudes paid parking and great snow last year overwhelmed park and ride lots at 6200 south. Additional park and ride lots needed.
Chris Cushing - SE Group
01:41:49
Would resorts be asked to contribute parking revenue to improvements in the canyon?
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
01:42:47
Sock it to ‘em — vehicular drivers need to start understanding the extreme impact their singular vehicle puts on society’s resources — air, soil, particulate matter coming off tires as well as exhaust, cost of maintaining the parking lots, etc.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:42:52
I think with any REVENUE based system, a special district should be set up to ensure that monies benefit the canyons
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:43:23
OH boy!
Mike Marker-LCC res
01:43:52
Ellen - agree
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:44:19
@Ellen, amen! Another advantage of the Cottonwoods Express is that all the tire residue is contained in the tunnel where it can be periodically swept.
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
01:44:23
4.g. No action…
Dan Knopp
01:44:56
no action is what we have now. not working very well.
Ralph Becker, CWC
01:45:17
Pat, please help us with what you mean by "modifications."
Megan Anderson
01:45:39
No action could give time for better technology and improved solutions though.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:45:39
@Ellen, also no emissions and totally solar-powered.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:45:57
Cheap.
Harris Sondak-CWC(Alta)
01:46:08
No action sort of limits the number of people in the canyons.
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
01:46:08
A pro would be if we do something that will soon be antiquated...
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:46:13
That Cheap comment was about no action.
Bob Pruitt-LCC resident/property owner
01:46:14
Crowding is a detterent
Megan Anderson
01:46:23
I agree with Ellen.
Megan Anderson
01:46:39
No action is only no action for now.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:47:28
The Cottonwoods Express tunnel system should last forever and be expandable effectively infinitely (mainly in coverage area).
Norm Henderson
01:47:43
No Action could include tolling, resort parking fees, increased bus service etc.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:48:15
The Las Vegas Loop is being expanded to the Las Vegas airport and along the whole strip and eventually all the way to LA.
Ralph Becker, CWC
01:48:45
The way we've described No Action, no new actions would be taken. We wanted to include this option with each element.
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
01:50:29
5.a. Showsheds
George Vargyas - Wasatch Backcountry Allainace
01:50:32
Why are the design tool results being represented without the public comments which seemed to have differing results?
Del Draper -Alta Community
01:50:50
Is it true that these snowsheds would only have prevented about 40
Del Draper -Alta Community
01:51:26
% of last years slides from blocking the road
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
01:52:02
Del, according to the EIS, snowshoes would change our road closure days from 11 to 6 per year
Norm Henderson
01:52:32
No action is most definitely a viable alternative. It could include bicycle and pedestrian improvements, variable tolling, enhanced bus, reduced on-road parking, year round bus, paid parking at resorts
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:53:31
Concerning snowsheds, totally against. Expensive, limited improvement in mobility. Ugly. 16' drop of waterfalls during gully washer rain storm and melt water. The bike path will be totally unusable after the first snowstorm and/or spring. The water sheeting off that roof with a 16' drop will cause major roadside damage.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:53:33
UDOT’s study said a shed would only reduce about 4 or 5 days of snow closure.
Joan Degiorgio
01:54:10
Please include visual impacts!!
Dave Fields - Snowbird
01:54:11
During the Feb. 5-8 storm last winter there were 29 class 3-4 avalanches and the road was hit by slides 27 times. 48 total avalanches during that event, according to UDOT. I can't say how many of these were in these three paths. These are the biggest "offenders" but I believe there are 64 avalanche paths in the canyon. Construction impacts and cost of snow sheds are massive. Doesn't address the other 61 slide paths and traction issues.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:54:20
… so is this really a benefit of reliability?
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
01:54:45
Jules, Pat has his hand up.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:55:04
The earthen berm is totally unconstructable and after the first rainstorms erosion would deposit them in the stream.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:55:43
Snowsheds when they get blocked by an avalanche can take much longer to get open than an open road.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
01:56:56
Here is the crash data for SR210. About 1/4 are related to snow.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
01:57:41
To visualize a 16' drop, look at your 8' ceiling and double it. Imagine thousands of gallons of water flowing quickly over a 12% pitch roof then dropping that height onto a gravel and sand road embankment. Major erosion.
Ned Hacker-WFRC
01:58:06
Would snowsheds reduce the cost of current avalanch controle measures?
Chris McCandless CW Management
01:58:26
Does the crash data show where the accidents occur and how many are located in the snow shed locations?
Mike Maughan - Alta Ski Area
01:58:36
Snow sheds will reduce road closures for avalanche mitigation which is a good thing, however, they will not reduce the congestion issues relating to a slippery road surface in the rest of the canyon. Weather is the #1 issue that impact traffic congestion in the canyon. Alta has days with 5,500 skiers and full parking lot and no red snake at the end of the day - dry roads and sunshine - likewise we have days with less than 4,000 skiers and 2 hours delays due to weather.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
02:00:14
It does
Blake Perez CWC
02:00:36
Thanks Carl for being our fact checker!
Dan Knopp
02:01:07
snow sheds will encourage mere cars
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
02:01:58
5.b. LCC Bike and pedestrian improvements…
David Carroll - Wasatch Backcountry Alliance
02:02:10
Active avalanche mitigation isn’t exactly an exact science. Sheds do a better job of hazard mitigation for slide paths that frequently reach the road.
Mike Marker-LCC res
02:02:35
snow sheds would reduce delays for buses
Dave Fields - Snowbird
02:03:08
Could we extend the Quarry Trail up LCC and pave it to get cyclists of the highway?
Dave Fields - Snowbird
02:03:16
I wish I had those calves!
Andrew Neilson
02:04:01
Dedicated bike lanes would be great to protect against auto-bike accidents since the road is narrow. Especially during early and late hours where bikes are easily lost in the glare.
Megan Anderson
02:04:02
Many cyclists love the Quarry Trail for mountain biking. I paving it would be tragic.
Nate Furman
02:04:06
What is the role of UHP in enforcing traction devices, AWD/4WD, and rated tires? Sorry if y’all had addressed this before; I’m having to bop in and out of the meeting. But in my experience in other areas of the nation is that the highway patrol has much more of a role in turning around cars that aren’t ready to travel in storms. And my walking-around heuristic is that 50% of delays are caused by vehicles that aren’t prepared to be in the canyons.
Del Draper -Alta Community
02:04:16
(Snowsheds) How do you value reliability? I don't put a high value on the private resorts in LCC being open an extra 3 days. The need for emergency evaluation may have a higher value and help support the cost of snowsheds.
Harris Sondak-CWC(Alta)
02:05:18
To improve bikers’ experiences, water and restrooms would be helpful
Norm Henderson
02:05:22
Snow sheds and the other issues that are being discussed in this CWC summit for Little Cottonwood Canyon will be reviewed and evaluated in the UDOT LCC EIS. Isn't the CWC mts process preempting and potentially conflicting with ongoing UDOT EIS process.
Mike Peterson
02:05:46
The Quarry Trail is a high priority biking venue.and may need special attention to ensure its continued availability.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:05:52
@Del, the Cottonwoods Express would be totally unaffected by avalanches and also support ambulances and police use in customized AEVs. There are already police departments using Tesla Model X and Y vehicles.
Del Draper -Alta Community
02:06:03
The bike path in LCC stills works with road side parking around White Pine. From a safety standpoint lowerthe speed limit, but you don't need to ban roadside parking for the sake of bikers.
Future Generations Shea
02:06:05
Julianna, With customized comments for LCC, if other comments were made for BCC, the person making the comment should put an asterisk * so staff would incorporate them in the summaries by cross referencing them.
Kerry Doane - UTA Planning
02:06:14
For those of us who can't make it without stopping, can there be pull-outs included?
Chris McCandless CW Management
02:06:48
Enjoyed the resting stops comment by Kerry.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:07:56
If you can't make it, you could call a Cottonwoods Express AEV to meet you at the next (or last) trailhead station. Or you could ride the CE up and bike down if you're REALLY lazy (like me).
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
02:14:14
Julianna I hope you are okay - hope this does not become a super spreader event
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
02:14:20
5c.Rail…
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
02:15:12
Thanks Kirk :)
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:15:34
This is a Stadler rail locomotive fact sheet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0dvwz53btlb0gva/Stadler%20Rail%20Cog%20locomotive%20specs.pdf?dl=0
michael allegra
02:16:08
current COG proposal would start near La Caille
Megan Anderson
02:17:02
I have spoken to several engineers and for the cog rail to be effective it would need a straighter path than the side of the road meaning through the forest. That would cut off lots of hiking, climbing, and mountain biking. It would also leave a large environmental footprint.
Future Generations Shea
02:17:03
Construction would depend totally on funding.
michael allegra
02:17:13
Travel time from La Caille to Snowbird is 19 min and to Alta is 25 min
Harris Sondak-CWC(Alta)
02:17:35
What, precisely, is the route of tracks, including east of Snowbird’s Entry 4?
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:17:37
The uphill speed of a HGem2/2 is 60 kph in traction mode and 25 kph in cog mode. Downhill is 17.5 - 12 kph.
Chris McCandless CW Management
02:17:39
What would be the cost of ridership per person?
Megan Anderson
02:17:49
There are multiple possible routes.
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
02:18:00
This is a huge investment if snow is gone in 30 years due to accelerating climate change.
Dave Fields - Snowbird
02:18:01
Mike, is "whistlestop" realistic? Can people really get off anywhere they want?
michael allegra
02:18:26
whistle stops are realistic
Megan Anderson
02:18:42
According to the engineers I have spoken to whistle stops are not feasible for keeping with the desired speed.
John Knoblock
02:18:58
con- large on the ground footprint
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
02:19:02
Con - significantly displaces dispersed recreation
Martin Ritter - Stadler
02:19:21
@Megan, Construction can really be done in an environmental friendly way. Pikes Peak was demonstrating it very nicely
michael allegra
02:19:24
footprint impact is smaller than an additional lane
John Knoblock
02:19:28
con- rail noise
Megan Anderson
02:19:31
What about the wildlife? A train going through their home is not going to be good.
Nate Furman
02:19:45
Agree @Carl.
Future Generations Shea
02:20:07
I am not sure "potential" is an appropriate adjective. "Actual impacts" is more accurate.
Andrew Neilson
02:20:27
Overall, Cog seems very intrusive on a number of fronts.
Dan Knopp
02:20:36
cars are not very good for wildlife
Mike Marker-LCC res
02:20:56
How would construction at mouth of canyon impact existing existing quarry park area? Land was donated by Whitmore family with expectations that that site would be preserved.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:21:09
Many of the rail "pros" are debatable. Tunnel boring is invisible and undetectable on the surface, even directly over the TBM.
Megan Anderson
02:21:26
True Dan, but the rail would most likely go over the Little Cottonwood Trail. I think that’s worse than cars for wildlife.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:21:29
MUCH less of a construction impact.
Megan Anderson
02:21:50
That’s the ‘historic’ or ‘original’ path.
John Knoblock
02:21:53
can that size train actually make the curves on the existing road footprint?
Martin Ritter - Stadler
02:21:56
Stops are possible and feasible. however, it wouldn't be everywhere but specific areas where the train can stop but doesn't have to stop
Konrad Brynda
02:22:00
Jumping in from across the ocean (Switzerland) ... we have a very dense narrow gauge mountain railway here which is much loved by the population. Snow is literally no concern when managed properly.
michael allegra
02:22:02
Wildlife can cross the tracks
Harris Sondak-CWC(Alta)
02:22:03
I think the pros and especially cons will depend on the specific route
David Carroll - Wasatch Backcountry Alliance
02:22:16
I don’t think Pikes Peak is analogous to a route along a stream coridor that is also critical to the watershed. You can dress up a pig, but it’s still a pig.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:22:25
Con: SLOW. 12-17.5 kph vs 240 kph for Cottonwoods Express descending.
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
02:22:27
If the old railroad grade (current trail) were chosen, what impacts would rail have LCC creek and water quality? A corollary question might be what is the impact on water quality of more buses or the status quo of lots of cars?
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
02:22:37
I’m not sure the impact to water/hydrology/ecology is POTENTIAL. Its very real.
Megan Anderson
02:22:56
I agree with Carl.
Dave Fields - Snowbird
02:22:58
An unknown right now is how a rail line would interface with resort base areas. We've been looking at that and will continue to do so.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:23:15
The Cottonwoods Express will be almost invisible. Zero impact on wildlife except a lot less cars to hit them.
Martin Ritter - Stadler
02:23:19
from an operations perspective, it is an interesting option: visual impact is minimized, not many trains per hour, snow removal without salt etc.
Mike Marker-LCC res
02:23:46
How much noise does a cog train create and how will it impact objective of “not impacting outdoor experience”?
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
02:23:56
To clear avalanche debris off cog rail would be Herculean.
David Carroll - Wasatch Backcountry Alliance
02:24:10
How about impartial expertise?
Megan Anderson
02:24:50
I agree with Elle
Megan Anderson
02:24:54
Ellen
Mike Marker-LCC res
02:24:57
Whistle stop locations would add to costs not currently specified
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:25:04
Cottonwoods Express trailhead stops will have zero effect on through AEV travel.
MARK WALTON
02:25:28
Where would the money come from to pay for this?
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:25:32
Cottonwoods Express will be absolutely silent on the surface. 0 decibels.
Konrad Brynda
02:25:56
How long can the train compositions be? That impacts max. throughput.
Chris McCandless CW Management
02:25:56
Is there a budget that defines the costs to make the train capacity reach 3000 passengers per hour?
Future Generations Shea
02:26:01
The new Salt Lake International Airport went from $1.2 billion at the beginning of the project and ended with an actual cost of $4.2 billion. Can we expect a similar escalation of costs with the Rail?
Kelli Anderson
02:26:10
the train will run closer to houses and a diesel electric train will be very loud.
michael allegra
02:26:10
financing could partially come from a public-private partnership
MARK WALTON
02:26:36
Also, could the train cars have “sunroofs” so you could could see the canyon more easily?
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
02:26:42
Blake… BUTT remember the difference in timing of use patterns. That’s at the difference
michael allegra
02:26:42
Train noise is no different than bus
Megan Anderson
02:26:43
Financing comes mostly from the legislature, which means tax payers.
Autumn Hu - UTA
02:26:46
Are we asking if rail is preferred over other transit options, or are we asking if rail should be considered as one transit alternative?
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
02:27:06
Ski resorts make money during the ski season, not in the summer.
John Knoblock
02:27:09
Can someone respond to how passenger capacity is calculated? How many people per car seated? How many cars per train?
Nate Furman
02:27:16
Con = Disruption to dispersed use, parking areas, the elimination of climbing assets.
Megan Anderson
02:27:37
The projected rail cost in 2015 was over a billion dollars. Why is it less now?
Megan Anderson
02:27:50
I agree with Nate.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:27:51
Note that for homeowners, AWD AEVs with snow tires will be available to deliver people to and pick them up from their homes.
Dan Knopp
02:27:54
mike can you speak about pikes peak/ watershed.
michael allegra
02:28:38
The current cost estimate is based on real experiences from construction of COG rail at Pikes Peak, CO
Konrad Brynda
02:29:07
John have a look here as a reference: https://www.jungfrau.ch/en-gb/corporate/jungfrau-railways/berner-oberland-bahnen-ag/berner-oberland-bahn/ I will try to get some more data in a second.
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
02:29:34
Cost of fare should be discussed for the metric of Equitable Access.
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
02:29:44
Can you elaborate on the big disparity in rail cost estimates between UDOT’s EIS and Stadler?
michael allegra
02:30:17
Pike’s Peak is constructed next to their creek. There has been no impact to the water based on the newest construction techniques
John Knoblock
02:30:39
Are the rail wheels rubber or is it steel on steel, which is of course noisy on corners?
Martin Ritter - Stadler
02:31:17
Capacity is calculated 4 trains per hour, 3 car Trainset with 250 People Capacity
Laura Briefer (Salt Lake City)
02:31:20
Transportation infrastructure so close to the stream and water intakes is concerning given our hydrology and soils. The major concern is ongoing erosion during and post construction, and whether riparian restoration could be successfully completed. Riparian corridor protection and health should be prioritized to avoid water quality issues.
Ed Marshall
02:31:22
What is the opinion of the Granite Community Council on the cog railway option?
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
02:31:36
Thank you Laura
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:31:56
One of the big things about snow in the Cottonwoods Canyons. We get snow from water evaporated from the Great Salt Lake. Snow crystals form around a particle. Typically these are dust or airborne bacteria from trees. In any case they need to be hydrophilic (miscible with water). Air pollution is mainly hydrocarbon particles that are hydrophobic (they repel water). Our air pollution affects our snowfall. We really need to attack the Salt Lake Valley air pollution. Converting a large portion of our vehicles to EVs will go a long way in that direction.
michael allegra
02:32:02
Steel wheels are the common. Rail wheel noise is a function of how well one maintains the track.
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
02:32:12
If cars and buses are still plying SR 210 and the rail is located in old railroad grade, won’t snow sheds still be needed?
Norm Henderson
02:33:02
SLCo has jurisdiction by law for transportation planning, watershed protection, and public safety. As such it should be a cooperating agency on the LCC EIS. As a cooperating agency SLCo can ensure that many of the needed LCC improvements being discussed today by CWC are incorporated into the EIS alternatives and help select the preferred alternative. Why hasn't Jenny Wilson pursued cooperating agency status on the EIS so that CWC recommendations can be included into the EIS alternatives. As it stands, SLC Public Utilities is leading on the EIS regarding transportation needs, and public safety. Why is the county ducking its responsibilities to provide direct input to UDOT on these very important matters?
Martin Ritter - Stadler
02:33:06
locating it on the old railroad could reduce the investment in snow sheds
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:33:14
Getting rid of the majority of the internal combustion engines idling up our canyons will have a positive impact on winter air pollution.
Kelli Anderson
02:33:19
agree with Laura
MARK WALTON
02:33:28
“Significantly displaces dispersed recreation” - what does that mean?
michael allegra
02:33:37
A rail/pedestrian/bike trail using the old RR corridor would avoid most all of the avalanche paths and would assume no sheds are required
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
02:34:03
But the old RR corridor is along our crucial waterway
Patrick Nelson
02:34:47
Does anyone know the risk a railway poses for potential wildfire starts?
Andrew Neilson
02:35:26
Is the RR ROW on the same path as the existing canyon road? Is it adjacent? Some other path?
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
02:35:31
Metal wheels on metal rails - I’d imagine sparks are likely
Laura Briefer (Salt Lake City)
02:35:45
Mike Allegra, avoiding avalanche sheds would also be a benefit to watershed and water quality given the construction and operations and maintenance footprint of sheds. So much of this would need to be vetted through engineering and design and balanced.
Martin Ritter - Stadler
02:35:48
including Rail into the EIS as an option, would allow to further discuss alignment and also mitigation plans for Water quality concerns
Laura Briefer (Salt Lake City)
02:36:16
I agree Martin.
Nate Furman, SLCA
02:36:17
@Mark, I can respond. I can only imagine that a train will disrupt parking areas (e.g., Gate Buttress) and trails (e.g., Grit Mill) in lower canyon. It seems overly optimistic to think that it will not. Specifically, any sort of roadway widening is likely to eliminate some of the climbing areas adjacent to the highway.
David Carroll - Wasatch Backcountry Alliance
02:36:36
“Pikes Peak, known as America’s Mountain, is the star attraction, but the journey along the way is full of show-stopping moments. You never forget your first glimpse of the Summit.” ..from Pikes Peak website. It’s a tourist attraction not a transportation solution.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:37:08
Concerning cost: The Las Vegas Loop that The Boring Company constructed was completed within budget and on time. I expect the Cottonwoods Express to be the same.
UTA-Carlton Christensen
02:38:00
It should be noted that in the Airport construction, Delta opted to go forward with another phase, which was north of a billion dollars, that was never part of the original number due to the passengers they were carrying. Price has definitely gone up, and that original estimate was about 10 years ago.
Ralph Becker, CWC
02:38:07
Having been involved in the SLC Airport development, the cost comparisons aren't relevant. The SLC Airport more than doubled in size, and the numbers from the time of design went from $3.2 billion to $4+ Billion.
Ralph Becker, CWC
02:38:45
Thank you, Carlton. Agreed.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:39:02
For the number of trains needed, a middle double-track area is insufficient. That works if you have one ascending and one descending and they pass each other in the middle. Otherwise you need a double track configuration.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:39:49
Being diesel-electric the tunnels would need to be larger diameter with extensive ventilation.
William McCarvill
02:40:47
Where would people get on the train in the valley?
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
02:40:50
To Carl’s verbal question of whether rail is a viable option if it doesn’t tunnel to other areas, Summit County and Park City are extremely opposed to any tunnel connection from BCC to Park City.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:41:36
Also a single-track with double passing area means the trains are limited in speed to the descent speed, roughly 15 kph which is slower than a bicycle.
Norm Henderson
02:41:48
Rail only up LCC still needs parking which will attract cars to the base of LCC. Need to consider train from Summit County (Kimball Jct) through the mountains to the top of LCC. This will attract the cars to an area where more cars can be accommodated.
Martin Ritter - Stadler
02:41:53
one of the big plus of rail, it could pick up people on multiple stations in the valley and therefore spread out the car / bus traffic for Park and Ride purposes
Ralph Becker, CWC
02:42:46
The cost developed for rail was from the mouth of LCC to Alta. (Just trying to help keep up with the questions. Rail experts can clarify or correct.)
Lorin Simpson-UTA
02:42:51
Mike, do the costs assume a connection to UTA's current rail line?
Megan Anderson
02:43:03
On parking, the base of the Temple Quarry Trail was donated by Whitmore Oxygen company to be preserved. From what I understand this would become a parking lot.
Megan Anderson
02:43:20
*for the rail
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
02:43:35
Is there a bar car?
Mike Marker-LCC res
02:43:44
Same concern here as Megan
Future Generations Shea
02:43:46
The old phrase, "if you are a hammer, everything is a nail". If you build railroads, then all transportation option solutions are rail based. Same with the Gondola.
MARK WALTON
02:44:04
Man, I love the idea of taking a train up the canyon, not having to worry about the twists, turns, deer, moose, etc. while driving, and minimizing the car traffic. Even if the service was limited, I’d be willing to schedule my departures. Particularly if the windows were nice and big
Chris McCandless CW Management
02:44:11
To eliminate more cars out of the canyon, don't we need to plan for a higher displacement of personal vehicles and a higher seating seating capacity in excess of 1,000 people per hour?
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
02:44:44
Carl, if there were a bar car, I would have to be your designated coachman :).
Dan Knopp
02:44:54
pikes peak train was built with private money at a cost of 100 million dollars
Ralph Becker, CWC
02:44:56
Costs were developed, consistent with the UDOT EIS, for all mode options from mouth of LCC to Alta so that an apples to apples comparison could be made.
Martin Ritter - Stadler
02:45:53
@ Chris, rail is a high capacity option. the good thing is, that it can easily been operated on a lower capacity but we could run 2 trains combined / connected as well as increase the capacity of 4 trains a hour to 8 or 12 per hour during peaks
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:47:10
Why is the Stadler Cog rail being given a more in-depth treatment than the Cottonwoods Express. The Boring Company may not have as long a track record (no pun intended), but it has been successfully constructing this infrastructure and is a spin-off of SpaceX which supplies the ISS and sends astronauts to orbit. The vehicles are currently available. The solar is totally doable. The tunneling is well understood and TBC has been revolutionizing the cost of tunneling. The hard rock tunneling is a one-time expense. It is well understood. We really should be sending a delegation to speak with The Boring Company, First Solar, and Tesla.
John Knoblock
02:47:22
What percent of normal powder day passenger capacity is 1,000 people per hour? 1000 x2 hours/8000=25%?
Ashley Burr-MIDA
02:47:22
I don't think pikes peak is a useful comparison. The mountain peak itself is the main attraction. The connecting canyon is more equivalent to I80. The pikes peak cog is the primary tourist attraction in and of itself, not a useful multipurpose transit mode.
Mike Marker-LCC res
02:48:07
Cost data presented needs to be independently vetted prior to decisions.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:48:22
@Ashley, slow is also not a problem with Pikes Peak as you're a sight-seer so slow gives you more time to sight see.
Megan Anderson
02:48:24
I agree with Mike.
Norm Henderson
02:49:07
Rail up LCC is counter productive. It will attract a huge amount of cars to the base of the canyon clogging roads in Cottonwood Heights and Sandy city. Need a rail alternative that will pull cars away from the base of the canyon.
Megan Anderson
02:50:03
I agree with Norm, especially if parking is at the base of the Temple Quarry Trail.
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
02:50:05
Since there are so many rail alignments and “devils in the details” associated with each, I wonder if one outcome from today’s polling and Summit should be whether the consensus is that UDOT should at least consider rail in the LCC EIS (which now has ruled it out from consideration).
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
02:50:18
One of SOC’s concerns with rail, other high capacity options, is that it still leaves the road open as a compounding visitor option. A benefit, of rail is it *could* serve all interests. Of course this is not without some costs/impact. So in the event of a rail, is having carless canyons a reality? We’d like to see a commitment to no cars accompanying the rail option.
Laura Briefer (Salt Lake City)
02:50:53
Great point Carl.
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
02:51:25
I agree with Carl's thought of rail but no cars
Future Generations Shea
02:51:35
Pikes Peak is composed of Smoky Quartz crystals and topaz. LCC is made of Intrusiv igneous rock. As a result, pollution from rail would move more quickly into the stream.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:52:21
Multiple mode changes decrease usage.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:52:34
Rail has very limited number of stations.
Dan Knopp
02:52:36
l would like to see rail replace cars in lcc
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:52:47
Rail cannot run out through a wildfire.
Cttnwds Exprs - David Stein
02:53:18
The gravel rail grade is non-flammable.
michael allegra
02:54:04
the advantage of rail is its ability to easily expand its capacity in the event the road is closed
Future Generations Shea
02:54:14
Department of Alcohol Beverage Control would not allow, sorry Car.
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
02:55:08
It should be a requirement. We should be dreaming bigger. If the benefit of a train is remove cars, we should aim to remove cars completely because trains have that ability.
Dan Knopp
02:55:26
agree
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
02:55:46
Allowing both cars (visitor cars, not residents) and rail sets a dangerous precedent to maximize the road and rail
Martin Ritter - Stadler
02:56:20
the beauty of the rail system is that it could run in parallel to cars or would have enough capacity too to run a system with cars removed.
Norm Henderson
02:56:25
Rail up LCC doesn't provide emergency egress out of LCC in case of catastrophic fire sweeping up the canyon or a massive slide in the canyon. Spending billions and not accommodating this problem. Salt Lake County should be insisting on this problem being addressed in all alternatives.
Megan Anderson
02:56:42
Snowbird in 2015 stated they would never force anyone to take public transit. Do they have that ability or level of influence to continue to insist on that point?
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
02:57:17
@Norm Henderson, the Cottonwoods Express will be unaffected by wildfires or landslides.
Mike Peterson
02:57:34
Agree with Carl! If rail or gondola is the chosen mode, it must include the a clear and measurable decrease in use of cars.
George Vargyas - Wasatch Backcountry Allainace
02:57:59
Emergency egress is over-hyped
Chris McCandless CW Management
02:58:11
Would the unintended consequences of rail only move lots more people into BCC? This should be analyzed.
Laura Briefer (Salt Lake City)
02:58:16
I agree with Carl and others regarding the use of transit and significantly limiting vehicles on the road.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
02:58:19
Unless you're the one trapped .
Megan Anderson
02:58:23
Agree with Norm
Andy Beerman
02:58:32
I like Chris' idea of asking a question of rail with road limits.
Konrad Brynda
02:58:35
“no cars” can be a selling point for tourism (as in Zermatt)
Norm Henderson
02:59:56
Not over hyped for the people who live there and might be roasted. Talk to the people of Paradise CA about the need for emergency egress being over-hyped.
Chris Cushing - SE Group
03:00:19
Should we include a poll that includes taking cars off the road?
Harris Sondak-CWC(Alta)
03:00:29
Egress is an issue that affects welfare of many people.
Chris Cushing - SE Group
03:00:30
With rail, or gondola
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:00:45
Big problem with diesel (either rail or buses) is it is not sustainable. 100 years from now neither will be around.
George Vargyas - Wasatch Backcountry Allainace
03:01:02
Then don’t live there. Risk is part of life.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
03:01:17
Gondola and no cars is trickier than rail because you can’t have a whistle stop (without a parachute)
Norm Henderson
03:01:28
Need to consider rail or aerial from the top of the canyon to provide emergency egress and take cars off the road at the base of LCC
Caroline Rodriguez
03:02:07
Yes, I agree with Chris. There is complexity and I would be in favor of further consideration of rail, with specific conditions.
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
03:02:47
Does the no change option cover Robinson's question?
Future Generations Shea
03:03:10
If UDOT eliminated the rail option, why is CWC rehashing the issue?
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
03:03:46
Rail question - yes if no cars except residents/delivery and the elimination of as many sheds.
Future Generations Shea
03:04:03
On the rail question - there will be litigation.
Ashley Burr-MIDA
03:04:16
fair. why would we continue to consider something to which UDOT said no ?
Steve Van Maren, Sandy Resident
03:04:25
Can't rail be used to ship freight (supplies) to the businesses in the canyon?
Martin Ritter - Stadler
03:04:47
Steve: yes it can
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
03:04:49
Rail question 2 - yes if no cars except residents/delivery and the elimination of as many sheds.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
03:05:36
There are way too many unknowns that we’ve failed to reign in
George Vargyas - Wasatch Backcountry Allainace
03:06:04
Yes, agree with too many unknowns
Chris Cushing - SE Group
03:06:14
Agreed
Chris Cawley - Town of Alta
03:06:31
I'm pretty certain UDOT is developing a rail alternative for analysis in the EIS
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
03:06:33
To Carl’s point, this is the danger of this process that it is preference based and in the realm of daydreams. Regardless of your thoughts on the EIS, it is science based
Martin Ritter - Stadler
03:06:55
I think the EIS would give the opportunity to answer those unknowns
Norm Henderson
03:07:27
Aerial and rail from the top of LCC (one Wasatch) will eliminate need for major blasting and environmental damage in LCC.
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
03:07:54
Rail question 3 Rail question - yes if no cars except residents/delivery and the elimination of as many sheds.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
03:08:01
Not when the implementer of the EIS has completely betrayed the public trust
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:08:38
@Carl yup.
Caroline Rodriguez
03:08:50
Favor with no general public vehicle access
Chris Cushing - SE Group
03:08:51
Norm, what do you mean by aerial/rail "from the top"?
Ralph Becker, CWC
03:08:59
We are preparing a question for the end of the modes elements of LCC on how people feel about removing cars from the LCC road.
Norm Henderson
03:09:34
Salt Lake County should be a Cooperating Agency in the LCC EIS to ensure that the public needs are protected.
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
03:10:13
5.d. Aerial...
MARK WALTON
03:10:20
I think that limiting the parking in the canyon will eventually drastically curb car traffic. Prohibiting most through traffic will be incredibly unpopular and incendiary, even if you make allowances for property owners like me.
Norm Henderson
03:11:31
Limiting parking in the canyon will transfer it to the base of LCC clogging roads in Cottonwood Heights and Sandy City. I wouldn't want that if I lived there.
Ashley Burr-MIDA
03:11:49
Agreed. Wealthy people will inevitably pay to park exacerbating inequity.
John Knoblock
03:12:55
Of course gondola capacity going to the Recreation Node ski resorts with normal full gondola car capacity is 4,000 people per hour.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:13:01
The Cottonwoods Express estimated time from the Gravel Pit station to Alta is 4.6 minutes with no modal change.
Norm Henderson
03:13:03
Pull cars away from the base of LCC. That concept is integrated into the purpose and need of the LCC EIS.
Dennis Goreham, WMC
03:13:08
When will CWC, or other entity complete a GIS viewshed analysis for this option so we can see the impact to the visual quality in the canyon?
Megan Anderson
03:13:12
The La Callie Base Station would have over 2,000 parking stalls correct? If that is the case I don’t know that it will help with traffic.
MARK WALTON
03:13:19
Please expand upon “Impacts to view shed and view quality”?
Chris McCandless CW Management
03:13:23
Is there a comparison sheet on the different modes and air pollution reduction - Gondola decrease it by 56%
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
03:13:39
It should be a con that the stops are limited
Martin Ritter - Stadler
03:14:02
would there be an option for year around service? or would this impact to costs per rider too much?
Chris McCandless CW Management
03:14:21
Year round service is preferred.
Megan Anderson
03:14:44
I also understand there might be a hotel at the LC base station. Is that correct?
Ralph Becker, CWC
03:14:50
Chris, I don't think we have AQ info for each option at this point. Hopefully, UDOT is developing as part of LCC EIS.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:15:01
If the gondola is built and the Cottonwoods Express is eventually built, the Gondola will become a hardly-used relic and be considered a boondoggle. Who would pay to have it removed at that time?
Konrad Brynda
03:15:13
Two points to consider with gondola: maximum wind speed for safe operation? how well can it serve emergency evacuation?
Chris McCandless CW Management
03:15:29
A hotel has been planned at LaCaille for several years and is located on property already zoned for that use. The plan is a 75 room boutique hotel.
Dan Knopp
03:15:38
laCaille station would also work with rail, or bus
John Knoblock
03:15:39
pros- quiet gondola
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:15:39
1000 people per hour vs. 20,000 per hour with the Cottonwoods Express. One station at the bottom vs. 25 stations spread out using existing parking lots.
George Vargyas - Wasatch Backcountry Allainace
03:15:49
What is cost to user estimate (park, bus, gondola ride)?
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
03:15:51
According to LCC EIS, ONLY articulated bus service from BCC new hub will be allowed. No bus service for gondola riders from 9400 S Highland.
Megan Anderson
03:15:51
What about emergency egress for the gondola? Are there plans in place?
Mike Marker-LCC res
03:15:51
How would excluding access to “kiss n ride” drops offs be enforced? (private cars dropping off riders at mouth of canyon would create congestion)
Norm Henderson
03:15:59
I wouldn't want to live anywhere near the new parking lots planned for Sandy City and Cottonwood Heights. The solution of expanding Wasatch Blvd to accommodate all those cars is horrifying.
Harris Sondak-CWC(Alta)
03:16:22
Lightning requires evacuation of lifts at ski resorts. What
Ashley Burr-MIDA
03:16:30
Look at the Glenwood Springs hotel base/ gondola to a theme park.
Dave Fields - Snowbird
03:16:33
Construction and operating impacts on watershed and canyon are much smaller with gondola. Gondola is the mode that is best suited to the user demands - everyone wants to arrive at the same time and leave at the same time and gondola can accommodate large numbers of people. It also functions without snowsheds.
Val Oveson - SkyRidge Development
03:16:39
Have there been discussions of extending the gondola into Summit and/or Wasatch County?
Harris Sondak-CWC(Alta)
03:16:43
What is the weather resilience of the gondola?
Del Draper -Alta Community
03:16:53
If there is not parking at the base of the Gondola and you have to take a bus there, what is the time to transfer from bus to Gondola. Seems more efficient just to stay on the bus and let the bus drive up the canyon on the existing roadway..
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:16:54
With 1000 per hour, I don't think they have seats.
Chris McCandless CW Management
03:16:59
In the LaCaille option, kiss and ride is planned for and encouraged. Gets more cars out of the canyon.
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
03:17:05
Is the La Caille option a private for profit option or will taxes support the private profit?
Ralph Becker, CWC
03:17:20
The aerial connection to Summit County will come up when we get to that portion of this Summit. Stay tuned.
David Carroll - Wasatch Backcountry Alliance
03:17:31
Are there risk implications to the watershed both during construction and ongoing for maintenance?
Megan Anderson
03:17:37
In one of the meetings I attended it was stated that maintenance cost for the gondola will sky rocket over time. Is there a way to combat that?
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
03:17:45
Would this option accompany a prohibition on resort patrons using cars?
Chris McCandless CW Management
03:18:27
The ski areas would provide free fares to the Gondola for those season ticket holders and employees.
George Vargyas - Wasatch Backcountry Allainace
03:18:39
That makes sense - a no car consideration
Norm Henderson
03:18:42
Just like the train, a gondola up LCC attracts cars to the base of the canyon (requiring expansion of Wasatch Blvd) and doesn't provide emergency egress.
Megan Anderson
03:18:53
If there is a LC base station does that pose a privacy concern for residents?
Kelli Anderson
03:19:36
I was asking the same question megan
Chris McCandless CW Management
03:19:49
The residents will be based upon new developments planned and they will half to sign a disclosure prior to purchasing a home.
Megan Anderson
03:20:10
Similar to Carl’s concern with the rail, if the cost is invested to build a gondola would this lead to connections to Park City?
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
03:21:07
Thanks Chris
George Vargyas - Wasatch Backcountry Allainace
03:21:16
Aerial systems close with regularity at the resorts. I suspect the gondola up LCC will have weather limitations as well (ice, wind).
Norm Henderson
03:21:53
County has responsibility for fire safety in the canyons. It should be a cooperating agency in the EIS to make sure that public safety is fully considered in all transportation alternatives.
Laura Briefer (Salt Lake City)
03:22:15
Watershed risks with the gondola include possible fuel storage and the potential development of new corridors and access/maintenance roads. For the La Caille option, Snowbird is offering to conserve land they own.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:22:35
Gondola towers have sheaves that drip lubricants. Just look under towers at Alta or Snowbird.
Konrad Brynda
03:22:38
Maintenance downtime has to be considered but is low impact (off-season).
Chris McCandless CW Management
03:22:39
From CW Managements perspective, the Gondola provides access only to LCC. That choice is one for others to make.
Theresa Heinrich
03:23:02
If the road closes & the cars are backed up below the La Caille turn off, how will the buses get up to the Park & Ride to drop off people to the gondola?
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:23:04
Those lubricants enter the watershed.
Future Generations Shea
03:23:10
What about emergency service if something happens to a gondola in mid-transit?
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
03:23:23
How would the towers and easement for access impact bouldering and climbing from the entrance through gate buttresss
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
03:23:27
Could Marguard respond to the need for a dual rope (redundancy) upgrade for the 3S gondola system to avoid closure due to rope/cable challenges associated with equipment malfunctions? Understanding this upgrade would nearly double the construction and maintenance cost.
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
03:23:34
Is it possible to condition the air (heat and cool) and provide WiFi to gondola cars? Also, is there a way to provide stops for dispersed recreationists at locations along the way (other than at the two resorts)?
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:24:03
Cables and sheaves need periodic replacement.
Chris McCandless CW Management
03:24:14
Wifi is available along with heated seats. The Gondola generates power on the downward cycle.
Megan Anderson
03:25:09
Has any study been done to show the impact on rock climbing with the gondola?
Jon Koenig
03:25:13
In regards to summer gondola use, do/can the gondola cars accommodate bikes? (To ride down for dispersed recreation.)
Norm Henderson
03:25:20
Why isn't the county providing input into this discussion about transportation alternatives up LCC. The county has the legal responsibility for transportation recommendations in the Wasatch. I would suggest Blake ask SLCo their perspective.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:25:27
@Chris, since the gondola cars going up weigh more than the ones going down, and their are friction losses, doesn't it always use power?
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
03:25:34
What are the environmental benefits of cable way, including reduction in green house gas emissions?
Dave Fields - Snowbird
03:25:56
Gondola's capacity has the greatest potential for getting cars off the road. 3,500 vehicles off the road would eliminate 47,000 lbs of carbon per day. This includes carbon produced to run the gondola.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:26:02
They are huge structures and highly visible.
Chris McCandless CW Management
03:26:35
Chris Robison the answer is yes on wifi and heated seats. For the dispersed recreationalists, a dispersed bus for those specific stops would be a good idea?
Konrad Brynda
03:26:40
View impact was an issue which generated substantial debate on a similar project I know of. It has to be carefully considered for such a project to gain public support.
Harris Sondak-CWC(Alta)
03:26:45
Specific alignment in Alta will be important to determine.
Shawn Marquardt - Doppelmayr
03:26:47
Addressing the comment about number of seats, here is an example of a modern 3S gondola cabin: https://youtu.be/s9Cx1kRKX-s
Dennis Goreham, WMC
03:27:23
The view will be obstructed from the bottom of the canyon, and towers, cables, gondolas will be visible from trails, peaks ect - both are objectionable and could be depicted through GIS analysis
Holly Lopez
03:27:49
view from valley would be more impacted by gondola than other options
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
03:27:59
All the way to Mt. Wolverine
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
03:28:12
At which point it isn’t backcountry anymore
David Carroll - Wasatch Backcountry Alliance
03:28:28
Parachutes for White Pine TH access.
Caroline Rodriguez
03:29:58
Im sorry, I should know this but do not. Does the analysis on the footprint for stations account for ramps to allow for ADA access to the gondola?
John Knoblock
03:30:07
Maybe the Snowbird parking lot Shuttle could drop folks at Whitepine trailhead?
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
03:30:07
It seems this option doesn’t really capture over 90% of the uses in the canyon
Norm Henderson
03:30:15
Gondola only going to the ski resorts provide a direct subsidy to two ski resorts. One of the criticisms of SkiLink was that it was exclusive. This proposal is even worse. At least with SkiLink the ski resorts were going to pay for it. With this alternative, the state is funding the project as a complete subsidy to Alta and Snowbird. The only way to overcome this subsidy problem is to expand the system to all resorts or have the ski resorts pay for the project.
Chris Cushing - SE Group
03:30:16
Angle station at Tanner's Flats could have load/unload to help address dispersed recreation.
Megan Anderson
03:30:47
Agree with Norm.
Kelli Anderson
03:31:04
agree with norm
Dave Fields - Snowbird
03:31:19
@John, I agree, we would need to help facilitate access to White Pine in several of the transit options.
Chris McCandless CW Management
03:31:20
In all options for transportation solutions in LCC will have negatives, bigger road, tracks in the canyon or towers. Our hope is to choose the one the makes the most sense and the least negative impacts.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
03:31:36
70% of the use in LCC is dispersed. How does this address this use?
Kelli Anderson
03:32:03
It doesn’t seem that any if these options has enough pros to negate the cons
Megan Anderson
03:32:21
Agree with Kelli.
Chris McCandless CW Management
03:32:45
It would be nice to know the percentage of users in the canyon that frequent the resorts and other areas or the dispersed recreations areas.
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
03:32:55
1500 parking spaces at La Caille with additional ski village development and thousands more parking space induces car demand through Granite, Sandy and CH neighborhoods.
John Knoblock
03:33:56
On good ski days most of the users are at the ski resorts
Mike Maughan - Alta Ski Area
03:34:26
Agree that we need better evaluation of the users in LCC that would benefit from a gondola option and those that would need to be accommodated another way.
Mike Peterson
03:34:47
Good points Ellen. The City of Cottonwood Heights will have the same questions.
Chris McCandless CW Management
03:35:22
A detailed traffic study was completed that shows the LaCaille Base Station solves the traffic problem and creates a solution using the CH City Wasatch Boulevard design and a level of service of A thru 2050.
Konrad Brynda
03:37:21
An alternative worth considering is PRT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_rapid_transit
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
03:37:38
Gondola questions - I clicked no mainly because I favor rail with no cars option more.
Andrew Neilson
03:38:18
Will the slides from this summit be made available?
Mike Marker-LCC res
03:38:24
Robert - Thank you!!
Caroline Rodriguez
03:38:40
100% AGREE!!!
Konrad Brynda
03:38:44
(full disclosure: I have a potential financial interest in PRT)
Blake Perez CWC
03:38:46
Yes, Andrew slides will be available on the cwc website
Caroline Rodriguez
03:38:47
thank you for that comment
William McCarvill
03:39:23
OK with me to extend
Caroline Rodriguez
03:39:26
Fine with me. I’ve lost my toddlers at thia
Caroline Rodriguez
03:39:30
this point
Caroline Rodriguez
03:40:04
they might be in the garage? Laundry room? At least I hear screaming, which is a good sign.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:40:16
The problem with that is that people who work for a proposal and make money from it will NOT point out deficiencies. A competing proposal will. If you are allowes to boost your proposal, you should be able to point out cons of theirs that they won't.
Mike Peterson
03:40:45
I will not be able to stay. Please proceed with my blessing.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:40:52
Pros and cons should be able to be brought to light by anyone who knows them.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:41:09
Or they may not come to light.
Kelli Anderson
03:41:12
agree with david
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:41:17
Freedom of speech, you know.
Harris Sondak-CWC(Alta)
03:41:35
I’m going to have to stop at noon.
Future Generations Shea
03:42:03
I would suggest there be a poll first of the staff as to how they would rank the three alternatives, and a secong poll of the same question to the Commissioners.
Blake Perez CWC
03:42:18
Hot take Pat!
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:42:38
For example, would UDOT tell about the deficiencies of the snowshed design?
Ashley Burr-MIDA
03:44:06
so true Caroline. As long as you can hear screaming, everyone is alive. Parenting win.
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
03:44:14
Couldn’t find hand raising… I’ll stay.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
03:44:34
Is this popular or electoral?
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
03:44:43
I couldn't get to raise my hand
Caroline Rodriguez
03:44:51
There are no final decisions being made here. @Carl keeping us alive with his humor!
Megan Anderson
03:45:22
I think that as long as people know who has a vested interest people could continue speaking in the chat. We all know what David’s interest is, as it is very transparent. It is the people who have a financial interest that is more disclosed that I would prefer not participate.
Norm Henderson
03:45:22
Perhaps you have already explained this but I'm not really clear on what is being done here. Are we talking about a mountain transportation system or is CWC providing more input to UDOT for its EIS. All this input has been provided to UDOT, Mountain Accord and CWC previously. UDOT has prepared numerous scoping and various alternative development documents.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:45:28
Has Doppelmayer pointed out the dripping lubricants from sheaves? It is something we just live with as a necessary evil of aerial lifts.
Megan Anderson
03:45:38
not disclosed
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:46:03
I have stains on ski jackets from this...
Norm Henderson
03:48:05
Solitude actually paid me to replace my jacket because of dripping grease.
Chris McCandless CW Management
03:48:20
@Norman, interesting statement on UDOT process and interaction with CWC and I think the CWC uses the 6521 comments on the LCC options which showed Gondola favored by a 5-1 margin.
Caroline Rodriguez
03:48:28
Of all the options, I find variable tolling to be the least equitable
Julianna Christie, 2nd monitor
03:48:31
5e. LCC Variable tolling...
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
03:48:38
A pro can include: Reduces VMT (not just Vehicles Per Hour).
Norm Henderson
03:48:43
Tolling can be part of no action.
Randy Doyle
03:48:51
5 times the cost of Big?
Megan Anderson
03:48:54
I feel
Megan Anderson
03:49:07
that with everything else a lot of details are unknown.
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
03:49:10
I thought there was a way of addressing the needs of lower income
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
03:49:25
Why not include the positive Environmental factors such as reduced VMT and associated air, noise and light pollution?
Ralph Becker, CWC
03:49:34
Pat, re: question about polling staff and Commissioners. A decision was made to have staff and Commissioners not vote. Our jobs are to take everything in/listen and be as objective as possible and hold opinions until Commission takes up this matter in its December Board meeting. Hope that answers your request.
Randy Doyle
03:49:47
5 times the cost of Big?
Norm Henderson
03:49:58
County could very easily make sure tolling is included in any alternative in the EIS as a cooperating agency.
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
03:50:03
Delivery and other service vehicles should be mandated or invented to travel canyon in lowest impact times.
Mike Maughan - Alta Ski Area
03:50:04
Has research been done to determine if tolling will have the desired impact on the LCC visitor demographic - seems it may have little impact on the affluent - 60% of visitors to Alta from outside the state of Utah - 50% of vehicles are rental cars
Jeff Silvestrini-Millcreek
03:50:14
Is tolling less equitable than the cost of a transit alternative? I assume there will be a charge to ride a tram or train.
George Vargyas - Wasatch Backcountry Allainace
03:50:53
Either both canyons are tolled or neither. Preferably both.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:51:21
BCC has a lot more room for bus infrastructure.
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
03:51:33
Tolling -Only if residents have a viable option - reduced toll cost for fulltime residents etc and equitable access for low income public..
Ralph Becker, CWC
03:51:35
Good points on tolling. Will be carried forward. The current tolling technology has a lot of flexibility -- a reason it is called "dynamic tolling."
Norm Henderson
03:52:30
Con - charging people to visit relatives and friends who live in LCC/BCC.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
03:53:08
thanks
Chris McCandless CW Management
03:54:07
Also interesting to note that the 6500 commenters in the UDOT EIS comments where generally in favor of the tolling.
Caroline Rodriguez
03:54:25
For discussion later, I would really push back on the concept that there are any effective tools that mitigate the inequity to tolling.
Mike Maughan - Alta Ski Area
03:54:26
Can paid parking have the same result as tolling on traffic?
Norm Henderson
03:54:50
Devil in the details, Chris. How do you distinguish between skiers and recreationists and residents, workers, construction, vendors etc. Also, social justice etc.
Norm Henderson
03:55:32
I agree with Mike. Paying for parking might solve the problem.
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
03:55:34
5f. LCC Enhanced bus…
Del Draper -Alta Community
03:55:35
LLC Roadside parking at White Pine has been off the charts this year. It is unlikely that expanded off road parking would eliminate roadside parking at White Pine. There must be a valid transit alternative before roadside parking is banned.
Ralph Becker, CWC
03:56:24
Good point, Dell. Same experience in BCC this year.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:56:26
Advantage of paid parking in resorts vs toll gantrys - easier to remove if no longer needed.
John Knoblock
03:56:26
Concur with Mike M's comment the resort paid parking is another way vs tolling.
Norm Henderson
03:56:31
Remember, no action could include tolling and paid parking. This does not have to be an EIS issue.
Del Draper -Alta Community
03:57:23
re roadside parking,The ski resorts in LLC use roadside parking both on busy days, as well as during Octoberfest. If roadside parking is banned at White Pine and other dispersed sites will it also be banned at resorts.?
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
03:57:35
Note that EVs have almost no maintenance. Replace tires is pretty much it.
Lorin Simpson-UTA
03:57:38
How many buses are assumed?
Dan Knopp
03:57:40
includes a lot of cars
Chris Cushing - SE Group
03:58:21
Does this option include dedicated bus lane? Sorry if that was disclosed earlier.
Mike Maughan - Alta Ski Area
03:58:47
How do we incentivize out of state visitors with rental cars to use the bus? Our experience is they don't hesitate to pay for convieniece.
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
03:58:51
This was intended for all, Pat. Sorry.
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
03:59:15
Why is this characterized as Seasonal? Which seasons and why not year round? In concert with with 365 day local bus service, what are the pros and cons of this over aerial or rail?
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
03:59:37
UDOT indicated that a greater frequency than 4 or 5 minutes is off the table for consideration, but why not do a study that includes three elements during the 30 days of peak times only: 1. 3-minute frequency (buses queue up so loading and off-loading can be accommodated) 2. Use of traffic management to flag Express Buses by private vehicles (sans road widening) 3. Riders load onto their Express Bus (SB, Alta, Sol, or Brighton) from regionalized/dispersed parking hubs along Ft. Union and 9000/9400 S.)
Norm Henderson
03:59:37
Enhanced bus service is also a no action possibility. It does not need an EIS. It can be immediately implemented by the county through implementation of its Wasatch Canyons General Plan (transportation component).
Megan Anderson
04:00:05
Agree with Norm
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:00:39
Agree with Norm
Ralph Becker, CWC
04:00:44
Good point, Norm, about increasing buses without road improvement would not result in EIS/NEPA work (presumably).
Del Draper -Alta Community
04:01:37
in my experience even on the busiest winter days when it takes an hour to get from 7200 so the mouth of LLC,, once in the canyon the traffic seems to flow. It raises the question of whether another lane is needed in the canyon. The problem is giving the busses a way to get passed the traffic jam on the two lane road leading the mouth of the canyon.
Kerry Doane - UTA Planning
04:01:38
@ Chris Cushing, UDOT proposes two different alternatives: with and without dedicated bus lane
Kelli Anderson
04:01:39
agree with norm
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
04:01:54
Remember if federal funding is used it still requires an EIS
Lorin Simpson-UTA
04:02:08
The combined LLC and BCC enhanced bus proposals will exceed the available capacity of the new Depot District Phase 1 and a large % of Phase 2. Additional facilities will need to be considered in the cost assumptions for vehicle storage and maintenance.
John Knoblock
04:02:13
Standing in a crowded bus on a curving mountain road is painful. At 23 people seated per bus, to get 4000 people (50%) up the canyon in 2 hours that requires a bus every 45 seconds. Is that feasible?
Ralph Becker, CWC
04:02:53
If just bus increases, probably a Categorical Exclusion, If roadway changes then probably greater level of NEPA.
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
04:02:54
polling is quick
Norm Henderson
04:03:12
Time for the county to make a decision. Enhanced bus service has been discussed over and over again. Deferring a decision on enhanced bus service to an LCC EIS or mts is ridiculous.
Caroline Rodriguez
04:03:17
I would be in favor or further exploration of this. As part of that, I would want a dedication of capital and operating support to UTA.
Abi Holt - Sandy Public Utilities
04:03:40
A limitation of the bus option is that they are still shut down by one bad driver/accident
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
04:03:46
And most transit based trailhead access options will probably require a FS Plan revision, it is safe to assume most actions in the canyons would require an EIS… its more a question of who’s
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:03:53
I'd much rather sit in a comfortable seat in a Tesla Model Y for 10 minutes listening to my favorite music with a great sound system and feel like I'm on a roller coaster ride!
Megan Anderson
04:04:28
Since we skipped the poll, I am in favor of enhanced bus.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:04:29
With a big grin on my face.
Del Draper -Alta Community
04:05:02
re roadside parking,The ski resorts in LLC use roadside parking both on busy days, as well as during Octoberfest. If roadside parking is banned at White Pine and other dispersed sites will it also be banned at resorts.?
George Vargyas - Wasatch Backcountry Allainace
04:05:04
David Stein - we get it. Enough.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
04:05:27
Remember both canyons are scenic byways so removing roadside parking helps to support the corridor management plans
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:05:48
In favor of reduced on road parking because nobody wants to use it anymore. Take an AEV directly to the base lodge from a local parking lot in the valley in minutes.
Abi Holt - Sandy Public Utilities
04:05:53
Can you talk about how this protects water quality?
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:05:55
Free
Mike Marker-LCC res
04:07:39
Most seasonable EEs use bus service provided by resorts
Julianna Christie, 2nd monitor
04:07:51
5g. LCC reduced on-road parking...
Mike Maughan - Alta Ski Area
04:07:52
Doesn't eliminating roadside parking impact dispersed recreation the most?
Konrad Brynda – Eero
04:07:59
What Caroline says makes sense... maybe free bus/train/gondola tickets would be a safer bet.
Norm Henderson
04:08:31
You're kidding me, right? The county can't make a decision on reducing on road parking without an EIS or a comprehensive mts? The county has primary responsibility for transportation planning. Enhanced bus service has been recommended for years. Why does the county need an EIS to tell everyone what they already know. It appears that this whole exercise is to kick the can down the road.
Ralph Becker, CWC
04:08:51
Note that the UDOT LCC EIS assumes elimination of roadside parking.
Charles Fillmore
04:09:07
why is providing better ski resort assess a con?
Julianna Christie, 2nd monitor
04:10:38
5.h. Year round local bus
Jon Koenig
04:11:49
Add Bus stop at 9800 South and Wasatch Blvd. at G.K. Gilbert Geologic View Park.
Ralph Becker, CWC
04:11:50
Norm: LCC is a State road with federal funding; that triggers NEPA.
William McCarvill
04:11:53
This is a hopelessly low number of visitors. More busses more frequently are needed
michael allegra
04:12:06
How many buses and what frequency would it take if the road was closed to cars?
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
04:12:24
It seems like a year-round local bus in conjunction with express bus should be an option
Kerry Doane - UTA Planning
04:12:32
This assumes no express bus to resorts, correct?
Chris McCandless CW Management
04:12:38
Without a revenue stream to accommodate the year round busing costs, how does this financially happen? If a gondola is constructed and tolls incorporated, the revenues from those sources could fund the year round dispersed buss option.
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
04:13:00
What assumptions and math go into the estimate of life cycle costs on this and other proposals? The $244,000 on local bus in LCC seems a lot.
Holly Lopez
04:13:04
seems a pro might be increased flexibility w/out fixed assets
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
04:13:08
“Labor” is not a negative for many of us. Would rather have tax dollars provide jobs to drivers and administrators than to disrupt nature, bulldoze and pave over more of our natural resources and induce vehicular demand.
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
04:13:23
$244 Million
Megan Anderson
04:13:53
Agree with Ellen.
William McCarvill
04:14:07
Seems like having busses stop at hotels would be a good idea
Norm Henderson
04:14:12
I hope you're not saying that enhanced bus service requires an EIS? Of course it needs to be included as the existing environment but it could be done without EIS. Of course the EIS needs to include it but the action is not dependent How can the county ensure what it wants in the EIS without The county not being a Cooperating Agency in the EDid the county recommend elimination of roadside parking in its General Plan? The devil is in the details. The county needs to make a specific recommendation. . Prehaps the county should provide some specifics about what
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
04:14:16
I think the reason why year around buss was more favorable in BCC compared to LCC is because there is more visitation in the summer in BCC
Ralph Becker, CWC
04:15:35
Good point, Carolyn.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:15:52
Note that Tesla EVs are engineered currently to last at least a million miles. Using the new 4680 cells (which will be pervasive throughout their models in two years), they may very well last 2-3 million miles, especially if never out in the weather.
Lorin Simpson-UTA
04:16:19
Total life cycle costs aren't yet at the break even point yet but are projected to get there with improved reliability of electric buses.
Lorin Simpson-UTA
04:16:48
As compared to traditional diesel buses.
Konrad Brynda – Eero
04:17:01
Gondola + dispersed bus is a sensible option. I literally want to invite anyone interested in the topic to pay a visit to Switzerland – you can experience any and all of these options here and see first-hand the advantages of each and how they can work together in a coordinated network. I’m also happy to answer questions and provide personal opinions and experiences if that may be helpful, as someone involved in the topic since childhood.
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
04:17:11
How about Tesla buses??
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:17:14
AEVs in tunnels are operating in temperatures in the 50s year-round, more energy efficient both in cold and hot weather.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
04:17:26
Save us ELON!
Andy Beerman - CWC - Park City
04:17:34
Based in our experience with electric buses, they are very close to be viable as a fleet replacement.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:18:15
He's working on it. Tesla's corporate mission to speed the world's transition to sustainable energy.
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
04:19:14
What are the resort operators opinions on paid packing?
Konrad Brynda – Eero
04:19:26
The Boring Company is also worth looking at. All of these innovative options are worth considering.
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
04:19:38
Operators’ opinions?
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
04:19:46
5.j. LCC Enhanced bus with roadway widening...
Caroline Rodriguez
04:20:24
Transit priority? Or transit ONLY?
Kerry Doane - UTA Planning
04:21:10
Reduced travel time and therefore, fewer buses required.
Chris Cushing - SE Group
04:21:23
Would this option include a barrier separating bus lane from vehicle lane to prevent vehicle wrecks from impacting bus movement?
Harris Sondak-CWC(Alta)
04:21:40
Still allows for bike lanes, right?
Del Draper -Alta Community
04:21:41
The bottleneck in getting up LLC on busy days is on the approach, not in the canyon. Fix Wasatch first, then consider whether another lane is needed in LLC
Megan Anderson
04:21:56
Carol King with eminent domain stated this option would impact lots of residents in LCC.
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
04:22:25
As a frequent driver on Donner Summit during winter storms, this is a dangerous idea
John Knoblock
04:22:30
Can a bus only lane be maintained when the road is snow covered?
MARK WALTON
04:22:31
Can anybody discuss how bad the negative impacts would be, compared to the “cons’ of other options?
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:22:56
36 minutes vs. 5 minutes via Cottonwoods Express. Not just watershed impacts, also wildlife impact. During the summer the creek is their water source. If smaller creatures have to divert around cuts or snowsheds, predators will wait at the ends. Much higher danger for them.
Friends of Alta - Kyle Maynard
04:23:08
It would be nice to know that AHI number when there is less traffic on the road - say we have most visitors on the bus. There may not be need for snowsheds
Megan Anderson
04:23:34
How would slides be prevented to protect the watershed?
Bob Pruitt-LCC resident/property owner
04:23:37
Where is the bus lanes, middle or side?
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
04:23:40
Donner Summit comment - everyone just droves in the middle of the road, fear factor on the part of the drivers
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:23:50
Plowing would be a real problem with a barrier.
Mike Maughan - Alta Ski Area
04:24:05
Seems more likely to attract than without roadway widening, but buses are still subject to weather conditions on the road. When it snows 2 inches per hour, as it often does, the two lanes will disappear
David Carroll - Wasatch Backcountry Alliance
04:25:10
Why has the option of implementing one=way travel for a period of time each day not been considered? It’s used effectively in several urban areas with am/pm commute cycles similar to peak travel periods to ski resorts. One lane could be private vehicle and the other would be bus only.
Megan Anderson
04:25:49
Please keep the two bus options separate.
Megan Anderson
04:25:54
In the polling.
Megan Anderson
04:26:02
Thanks
Lorin Simpson-UTA
04:27:21
Blake, my comment on cost of ski buses were based upon diesel buses. Electric would exceed that amount. Electric buses are reducing in cost every year but still quite a bit more than diesel.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
04:28:11
Mayor Wilson - Thank you for making these issues a priority! Its hard work but we need to figure out a direction. Too many generations have let these issues slide.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:29:08
@Lorin, you should compare total life span cost. Since fuel and maintenance are much lower, they may be at life time cost parity. I don't know how they currently compare.
Norm Henderson
04:30:07
What is the goal here? Are we trying to get as many people into the mountains as possible? The current situation has some inherent limiting factors (like the number of parking spaces along the roads and at the ski areas). If you remove this limiting factor, we would be subsidizing more use at the ski areas and trails. Why would we want to do that? To allow the ski resorts and developers at the base of the canyons to make more money?
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
04:30:34
I wanted to vote no on both options because of the safety factor during blizzard conditions when drivers drive in the middle of the road
Del Draper -Alta Community
04:30:54
Paid parking sure seemed to change behavior at Solitude
John Knoblock
04:31:11
agree with Carolyn!
William McCarvill
04:31:15
Maybe more attention needs to be applied to what happens to modes when there is an upset condition like heavy snow at the resorts. Which modes are more robust and least likely to disruption?
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
04:31:29
Yes it did change the behaviors at Solitude as they parked on the road
Megan Anderson
04:31:56
The planning commission voted in the no action yesterday.
Megan Anderson
04:32:06
Correct?
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
04:32:30
Will McCarville’s suggestion terrific: “Maybe more attention needs to be applied to what happens to modes when there is an upset condition like heavy snow at the resorts. Which modes are more robust and least likely to disruption?”
Megan Anderson
04:33:19
In my mind no action is temporary. I think it could be prudent to do minimal improvements while technology improves.
John Knoblock
04:33:25
paid parking with no roadside parking pushed folks toward transit
Konrad Brynda – Eero
04:33:44
multiple choice poll ?
Laura Hanson
04:33:45
Could there be a phased option? bus short-term as we develop a potential capital solution for the long term?
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
04:33:54
I feel like we’ve all said NO ACTION - ie Not doing anything - is untenable… that’s why we are all here
Norm Henderson
04:34:29
I wanted to vote no on both options because I don't want to subsidize more use of our mountains. While I don't like full parking lots spilling onto the roads, these conditions do limit use in the mountains. I don't want to replace this limitation with a system that will allow unlimited use.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:34:37
Rail or bus options that use fossil fuels need larger tunnels and much more extensive ventilation than AEV tunnels.
Del Draper -Alta Community
04:34:43
if you take no action in LLC, there still needs to be action on Wasatch BLvd which is the big bottleneck that cripples bus service in LLC
Norm Henderson
04:34:48
No action is not doing anything.
Steve Van Maren, Sandy Resident
04:34:51
2 polls: first choice, Second choice.
Carolyn Keigley brighton town council
04:34:58
Could there be a No Action option be added to include a reservation system like Danali NP and Zion?
Mike Marker-LCC res
04:35:15
Design your transit data may be less reliable given questions regarding the accuracy and clarity of projected cost data
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
04:35:33
Carolyn, that’s a conversation for the designation conversation, not transportation
Norm Henderson
04:35:35
UDOT must define what no action is in the EIS. It will include much of what is being talked about today.
Andy Beerman
04:35:48
I need to sign off shortly. Will try and follow on my phone, but may lose signal. A big thank you to everyone that participated. Great facilitating Julianna, nice driving Blake, and thanks to everyone else that put a lot of time and prep into making this Summit a success.
Megan Anderson
04:36:02
No action would not mean doing nothing forever.
Ellen Birrell Save Not Pave
04:36:06
“Phased option” per Laura Hanson — spot on!
Ralph Becker, CWC
04:36:34
Thanks to all of you, realizing we are extending beyond time for many.
Bob Pruitt-LCC resident/property owner
04:36:56
What about Cottonwood Express as a choice?
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:37:02
Shouldn't the enhanced bus have two options?
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:37:08
with and without road widening?
Norm Henderson
04:37:42
No action being discussed here is different than the no action in the UDOT EIS. Very important distinction. Hopefully Blake will explain this to the participants.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:37:49
I agree with Bob. If rail is an option, why not CE?
David Carroll - Wasatch Backcountry Alliance
04:37:49
Can you do ranked choices?
Ralph Becker, CWC
04:37:51
Phasing is an important element. We had hoped to get to this approach later in discussion.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
04:38:48
Dropping like skiers in the cirque on a powder day
John Knoblock
04:39:14
Seems like Cottonwoods Express is pie in the sky at this point.
Ralph Becker, CWC
04:39:15
Norm. You raise a good point. We are looking at the No Option as something different from the NEPA term. We wanted a comparison of people who don't want to see any improvements. That has been brought up as a preference by some.
Steve Van Maren, Sandy Resident
04:39:27
Start with enhanced bus, then go to the railway ROW with a different ption.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:40:23
Cottonwoods Express is NOT pie in the sky. The Boring Company is building tunnel systems now. Solar is available now. Big Batteries are being built now. The AEVs are available now.
Norm Henderson
04:40:29
Ralph, people don't know this subtle distinction since they sound the same.
Megan Anderson
04:40:41
I would have voted for enhanced bus as long as it did not include road widening. I was unclear on that in the poll.
Nathan Rafferty // Ski Utah
04:40:50
Where’s the John Knoblock musical interlude music?
Nathan Rafferty // Ski Utah
04:41:29
There we go…
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:41:41
:-}
Caroline Rodriguez
04:41:47
THANK YOU!
MARK WALTON
04:42:06
I still think the arial transportation is worth exploring.
Kelli Anderson
04:42:27
👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Norm Henderson
04:42:38
Megan, you have just pointed out why this exercise today is very concerning with the results being manipulated to advance certain agendas.
MARK WALTON
04:43:17
Maybe not perfect, but fewer vehicles up the canyon, great views, can generate income to pay for it, quiet
Charles Fillmore
04:43:40
As a Utah county resident, day skier, is it a correct statement to say that enhanced bus service to LCC would primarily benefits SL county residents?
Norm Henderson
04:44:52
No, Charles, because SLCo residents living near the canyons will be inundated with cars and development.
Konrad Brynda – Eero
04:45:27
Have a great weekend everyone. Best of luck with the project. Don’t forget to connect the ski resorts with the airport for ppl like myself coming from far far away ;)
Norm Henderson
04:46:03
Pulling cars away from the base of the canyons should be the goal. That way everyone wins.
Konrad Brynda – Eero
04:46:04
And that musical interlude is magnificent <3
Norm Henderson
04:46:30
Agree, love the music.
William McCarvill
04:47:47
Wheres down dog?
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:48:01
None of the Cottonwoods Express technology needs R&D. It is all off-the-shelf hardware and construction techniques. Tunnels are being bored as we speak (or type). Stations are being constructed. Full Self Driving EVs are being beta tested by private citizen Tesla owners in challenging end-case environments like roundabouts. Solar farms are being constructed. Stations will elevators and escalators are being constructed. It is all doable if we have the will to think out-of-the-box and do some serious evaluating of what could be an incredible MTS that makes us world famous and solves these issues forever.
Lee Anne Walker
04:48:04
I think we are pre-mature. We are in the middle of a world changing pandemic which has also supercharged technological change. We are going to be wrong--and create something that will instantly be out of date, too expensive, ugly and a reminder of the botched plague years. New things are being reported already. .
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:49:48
And yet a slow and expensive Cog Railway is being given more attention in the CWC literature. A system more expensive with much less utility.
Julianna Christie, 2nd monitor
04:50:09
6.a. Cottonwood Connections Aerial...
Kelli Anderson
04:50:31
agreed Lee Ann and David
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
04:50:32
Sub-Alternatives… The Id, of the alternatives
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:50:38
Four options. EV only tunnels.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:51:09
Smaller, much less expensive, better environmentally.
William McCarvill
04:51:47
Would a gondola be affected by forest fire and lightning?
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
04:52:38
How does this assure no top terminal, or does it assure that?
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:52:39
Alta to solitude in two minutes.
Ellen Birrell
04:52:47
What would be the aerial travel time between Brighton and Alta?
Jon Koenig
04:52:48
Alta - Brighton, Will this be an inclusive option?
Blake Perez CWC
04:53:06
yes work boht ways
Blake Perez CWC
04:53:09
both
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:53:15
Alta to Park City in four minutes.
Norm Henderson
04:53:20
Cottonwood ski areas need to get ready for the upcoming Olympics. Something needs to be done so the resorts in the cottonwoods can be venues. Something needs to be done to get access but packing more cars into the confined space at canyons base is not the answer. The people who live near the base don't want Wasatch Blvd expanded. The people in LCC and BCC don't want blasting and road widening.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
04:53:31
Could lightning power the Cottonwoods Express?
Chris Cushing - SE Group
04:53:50
Good one Carl!
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:53:53
When are these Olympics?
William McCarvill
04:54:25
Not everyone wants thte Olympics in the Cottonwoods like 2002
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
04:54:26
Con, Impacts hikers in the area who hike to get away from technology. If your experience is to get away from technology, we completely lose these two canyons (Twin Lakes and Grizzly.)
Ellen Birrell
04:54:32
What percentage of skiers choose to purchase the Alta/Snowbird day pass? This would be indicative of whether the Brighton/Alta gondola pass would be received positively or have financial viability?
Mike Maughan - Alta Ski Area
04:54:43
Any wetland areas can be avoided by the base to base gondola.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:54:55
The problem with Lightning is it's a hell of a lot of power in an extremely short time frame. If you have ultra-capacitors capable of capturing it then it would be a possibility.
Charles Fillmore
04:55:14
Is it correct to say that this kind of system is more popular with developers as opposed to a public interest?
Barbara Cameron-BCCA
04:55:28
This is a safety and humanitarian issue. What importance do we attach to safety for our visitors and their families?
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
04:55:31
How important is this to the resorts in both canyons and are they interested in a public/private partnership with shared costs?
William McCarvill
04:56:01
Which mode is most likely to encourage development in the canyon
Mike Maughan - Alta Ski Area
04:56:24
Ingress and Egress cannot be understated..
John Knoblock
04:56:44
pro is access to Brighton and Solitude when BCC is a disaster.
Autumn Hu - UTA
04:56:57
What is the user demand?
John Knoblock
04:57:00
the road that is
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:57:15
If you have truly rapid transit from either the Salt Lake Valley or Park City valley that removes a lot of development pressure in the mountains
David Carroll - Wasatch Backcountry Alliance
04:57:20
Call it what you want it’s still Interconnect. Good for marketing. The egress bogy man is a also very convenient rationalization.
Laura Briefer (Salt Lake City)
04:57:24
I believe someone said the system would be shut down in a fire. That would not help ingress-egress in a fire. Unless I heard that wrong.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
04:57:49
I can say the demand for unimpaired wilderness and backcountry is high!
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
04:58:05
The only way to be wildfire immune is to be underground.
Nathan Rafferty // Ski Utah
04:58:06
The advent of multi-resort passes makes canyon/canyon connections more desirable to those passholders (of which there are many).
Ralph Becker, CWC
04:58:09
A lot of good questions and points on LCC-BCC connections.. As Jules, noted, we'll be incorporating comments as the CWC goes forward.
Mike Maughan - Alta Ski Area
04:58:11
Depends on where the fire is - m
William McCarvill
04:58:16
The mode has to be successful in all conditions and threats.
John Knoblock
04:58:22
And there is of course already power lines that go over that route.
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
04:58:55
6.b. No action (Cott Canyon Connections)
Mike Maughan - Alta Ski Area
04:59:21
No action does not mean Alta will not connect to Solitude via ski lifts
Norm Henderson
04:59:22
Ski areas were willing to pay for SkiLink and one Wasatch. I don't see how they wouldn't provide this funding for an aerial transportation system run by UDOT to connect all seven Wasatch resorts. A public private partnership would be a winner.
William McCarvill
04:59:36
No visiual impact
Kerry Doane - UTA Planning
04:59:50
No alternative to driving around between canyons
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
05:00:26
And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted. - 1 Nephi 21:11
Norm Henderson
05:00:29
Exactly Mike.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
05:00:34
Just sayin'
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
05:00:42
Guardsman's Pass is open during fire season
Norm Henderson
05:01:25
Gurardsman's is not open during avalanche season and it doesn't help Alta/Snowbird.
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
05:04:18
6c. Cott Canyon Connections - rail tunnel…
Chris McCandless CW Management
05:05:17
Does tunneling provide a new water source?
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
05:05:24
Is there any current mining?
Future Generations Shea
05:05:29
Blake, you should include litigation as a con?
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
05:05:43
How does it impact "legacy mining"?
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
05:05:45
Does tapping a keg make more beer?
William McCarvill
05:06:01
Why can't we depend on national Guard helicopters for rescue?
Blake Perez CWC
05:06:10
mmmm beer
Andrew Neilson
05:06:23
How would tunneling handle ingress of water?
Ellen Birrell
05:06:25
Improved connection between resorts only serves 6% of Utah pop. (those who ski). Is the uncertain higher state tax rev from out of state skiers, really warrant this?
Chris Cushing - SE Group
05:06:28
If only we could get kegs here in Utah!
Bob Pruitt-LCC resident/property owner
05:06:41
There’s already a tunnel through there
Steve Van Maren, Sandy Resident
05:06:46
What is the elevation difference at each end?
Ellen Birrell
05:06:57
Will’s point of heli rescue is valid.
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
05:07:01
Experience from Prince William Sound and Whittier , Alaska. The tunnel was promised to never, never open to autos. Guess what, it is open to cars and now Prince William Sound is as busy as Lake Powell. Opening this tunnel as an auto tunnel before long.
Charles Fillmore
05:07:07
Again I see this a scheme for developers who would be interested in hooking up the two mountains.
John Knoblock
05:07:16
How many miles of existing tunnels are already in the central Wasatch???
Caroline Rodriguez
05:08:04
aerial tunnel?
Future Generations Shea
05:08:15
There are more than 150+ miles in BCC and LCC.
Caroline Rodriguez
05:08:30
i thought that was maybe those Harry Potter mine carts
Ralph Becker, CWC
05:08:30
Existing, old mining tunnels: I remember the number 1200 miles of tunnels in this part of the Wasatch.
Caroline Rodriguez
05:09:43
Pro for a transit tunnel: More flexible to
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
05:09:49
Fossil fuel vehicle tunnels need extensive ventilation.
KIRK NICHOLS, BCCC, Univ.Utah
05:09:52
See note above Blake
Caroline Rodriguez
05:09:59
upgrade as technology advances
Laura Briefer (Salt Lake City)
05:10:18
Discharge of two of those tunnels are responsible for the zinc TMDL on Little Cottonwood Creek. There would likely be environmental consequences in disturbing mining legacy contaminants. And as Pat mentioned, the hydrology of the systems. Just to clarify.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
05:10:21
50-60 years from now there will be almost no fossil fueled vehicles.
Future Generations Shea
05:10:25
The old mining tunnels have either collasped or the hydrology has adapted to them.
Norm Henderson
05:11:12
Tunnel and Aerial connection options should be fully analyzed in the LCC EIS. Both options could pull significant cars away from base of LCC and BCC. Doing so reduces congestion and increases mobility in LCC (the purpose and need of the LCC EIS). Perhaps Blake could address this for the listening public.
Caroline Rodriguez
05:11:50
transit tunnel with electric mass transit vehicles (i.e. not Cottonwoods Express)
Ralph Becker, CWC
05:12:24
The LCC EIS is not including an analysis of connections to BCC.
John Knoblock
05:13:29
Exactly what Blake said- makes ore sense to go up LCC to Brighton than to go up BCC
Norm Henderson
05:13:30
Blake, Not talking about aerial/rail up canyons.
Julianna Christie, Crafted Leadership
05:14:13
7.a.b BCC - PC Connections...
Future Generations Shea
05:14:37
Blake, who composed the Plan your Transit?
Norm Henderson
05:14:51
Ralph, why wouldn't UDOT evaluate an alternative that meets the purpose and need? Perhaps you could explain UDOT's thinking on this.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
05:14:54
The idea of base to base is already non-sensical because there are already lifts to ridge lines…
Ralph Becker, CWC
05:15:14
UDOT would need to explain their rationale.
Chris Cushing - SE Group
05:15:21
20-25 minutes is correct, right Sean?
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
05:15:28
For example, bear trap has moguls in it from 9990
John Knoblock
05:15:31
Don't let PC folks snake my pow lines!(;>)
Chris Cushing - SE Group
05:15:33
Shawn (sorry)
Del Draper -Alta Community
05:15:50
to Save not Pave - getting folks to big cottonwood by taking them up LLC first should be getting your attention
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
05:15:59
Its not about snaking… its about perpetuating a false narrative
Norm Henderson
05:16:02
Carl, were talking about transportation system not a skiing system.
Ellen Birrell
05:16:22
Need metric on how many vehicles currently come into BCC and LCC on average as well as peak period days. Economically and environmentally viable?
Ellen Birrell
05:16:54
Clarification: How many come into BCC and LCC FROM Park City?
Shawn Marquardt - Doppelmayr
05:16:57
@Chris, Yes 20-25 minutes would be realistic for a 6mi aerial system.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
05:17:00
Fact Check: UDOT says 8% on the high end
Caroline Rodriguez
05:17:45
How are you identifying where the vehicles are
Charles Fillmore
05:17:56
More electric cars?
Caroline Rodriguez
05:18:04
coming from? Registration? Blyncsy?
Ellen Birrell
05:18:27
9% to 30% coming from Park City is a huge spread. Valid metric? Especially considering that few likely drive all the way from PC to ski Brighton or Solitude…
Norm Henderson
05:18:43
Carl, Put a large parking lot adjacent to Olympic Park in Summit County (Kimball Junction). Cars would be pulled from SLC valley to this facility. By so doing, we don't have to build big prking facilities at the base of LCC and BCC.
Steve Van Maren, Sandy Resident
05:19:02
Needs the ability to stop at the top of Gardsman Pass for skiers and hikers.
Christopher Robinson, CWC Chair
05:19:42
As a representative of the Wasatch Back, I am uncertain of our citizenry’s opinions on this aerial connection between BCC and Park City. We also have not had any opinions of which I know from the resorts that would stand to benefit.
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
05:19:42
Norm, that is non-sensical. No one is going to drive to PC to get to the cottonwoods
Steve Van Maren, Sandy Resident
05:19:55
Everything is better than no action, if it can be funded.
Norm Henderson
05:19:56
Maybe, but that would need to be analyzed. Transportation is what we're talking about in this process.
Mike Maughan - Alta Ski Area
05:20:23
Carl, UDOT study focused on all vehicles coming into the canyon, our focus was on people that come and park in our lots and go skiing
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
05:20:37
I realize people are talking about transportation, but there are impacts associated with transportation that AREN’T being talked about
Norm Henderson
05:20:38
Carl, it is the same time from SLC to LCC as it is from SLC to Kimball junction.
William McCarvill
05:21:33
Thank you Blake
Laura Hanson
05:21:57
Nice work Blake, CWC and Julianna.
Future Generations Shea
05:22:02
As many people know I was skeptical of the Summit and it modality. But, with Julianna's leadership we had a productive process. Thank you Julianna.
Jon Koenig
05:22:06
Thank you Blake and CWC.
Laura Briefer (Salt Lake City)
05:22:41
Thank you Blake, and CWC team, and Julianna.
Del Draper -Alta Community
05:22:51
to Blake and staff - good job. Thanks
Caroline Rodriguez
05:23:08
This was very productive. Wonderful job. Thank you.
Cottonwoods Express - David Stein
05:23:11
In the Chat, there is … in the bottom corner. You can click that and Save Chat.
Norm Henderson
05:23:17
All options should be analyzed and the environmental impacts presented. Keeping options out of the analysis misleads the public.
Mike Christensen, Utah Rail Passengers Association
05:23:26
Thanks Blake, Lindsey, and Julianna! :)
Ellen Birrell
05:23:39
Thank you to Blake, Julianne, Ralph, Chris for leadership and et al to those who participated!
Lindsey Nielsen CWC
05:24:01
comments@cwc.utah.gov
Carl Fisher, Save Our Canyons
05:24:07
What’s the Consensus?
Norm Henderson
05:24:40
Desn'
Ralph Becker, CWC
05:24:45
We'll see the results of the polling in a minute.
Andrew Neilson
05:24:48
Great job Juliianne and Blake!
Mike Marker-LCC res
05:24:55
Census? How about “patterns” and “themes”?
Ned Hacker-WFRC
05:25:06
Great job CWC Team! Thank you.